|Best Upgrade for a A500+||page 1 2 3 |
13 Apr 2011 11:30
|I didn't understand the part about DRAM, SRAM...|
13 Apr 2011 12:49
|When you add DMA you have to write new drivers and find somekind of mechanism to replace the amiga os PIO-mode drivers you propably need for bootstrap at runtime with your DMA ones.|
I can not see any need to use Fat GARY because of a 68EC030 any turbocard for the A500 with 68030 or 68040 does not need Fat GARY so why do you?
It sound more less you plan to use the A3000 schematics combine it with the A500 and get somekind of hybride with IDE instead of SCSI.
But that sounds like a lot of rework of your motherboard as it is somekind of hack connecting to serveral sockets of the mainboard. CPU, Gary and possibly Kickstart.
You are not far away from a project like the phoenix for the A1000 it's a replacement mainboard.
See here: EXTERNAL LINK Georg Braun did a variant with a lot of tuning included:
EXTERNAL LINK There is a discussion in german here for creating about the same for the a500 there a few concept drawings EXTERNAL LINK The guy who did the concept btw. also from NL send it to a pcb manufacture don't know if he got it working his web site is EXTERNAL LINK
14 Apr 2011 00:52
|Hehe i already peeked at the schematics before you posted the link. :P|
All i need from fat gary is the extra address lines so i can make sure of stuff to operate within limits these address lines would be placed on a different board fitting over the current motherboard as so many expansions.
I am currently looking at a Kickstart switcher(nothing more then a simple jumper cutting VCC to one or another socket)
my two biggest worries for the moment are how the heck is it all gonna fit on the board and i hope the PSU can handle the extra drain.
14 Apr 2011 10:58
|Have look inside FAT GARY EXTERNAL LINK as long as possible (prototype in discrete logic)|
No Kickstart switcher ever switched VCC!!! Very bad to have a flowting chip, that is a nearly warrantie for crashes. _CE is switched power is always connected to both kickstarts.
Why are you looking for such a thing? When you do an abouve board why not just grab the handfull pins you need from the kickstart socket all others are on the 68k socket. Here is a hobby project for a flashreplacement EXTERNAL LINK .
When you implement a turbocard why don't you just use some ram and writeprotect it as done in many other cards. Will give an extra boost when Kickstart resists in ram just needs a reboot while startup. It's also much easier to integrate drivers like this.
14 Apr 2011 18:18
|Cool beans, that first link Stefan.|
Besides only part i need the extra 8 address lines for is to AND them so i can use them safely without risking compatibility.(yes this is one of the reasons i go CLPD on this)
I think i can add some 244 or 245 to the datalines of the rom easy enough.
Besides that i can just have a empty second socket.(who needs flash when you have a UV lamp and a EPROM?)
68EC030 doesn't have a MMU so only form of write protection i can give is placing it outside the address range of the real machine.
14 Apr 2011 21:42
|There is realy no need for any 244 or 245 for a Kickstart switch unless you use a flatcable. But You should consider a buffer for the IDE inteface. The Amiga 500 Kickstart is 16 bit when you use a 68EC030 you can have 32 bits that means to expensive 16 bit Eproms or 4 very cheap recycled PC BIOS Flash chips.|
You do not need a MMU.
1. Don't let the memory be added via Expansion ROM to the memory map.
2. Map only 512k to a fixed location
3. Use a little tool to read a Kickstart from disk to this memory area if not done before
4. disable the onboard kickstart and remap the memory to this location (reprogram you address decoder) use a patched kickstart that automaticaly binds your second memory block and writeprotect the kickstart area.
(You need some simple logic that blocks the write signal from the CPU to memory when the kickstart area is accessed. This can easiely be done in your CPLD)
5. map the second memory block (the rest e.g. 32 mb) to a 32 bit address
6. call the reset vector
7. Your amiga will reboot from your writeprotected RAM Kickstart and as the kickstart is patched it wil add your memory to the memory map and everything will work nicely.
When you boot from floppydisc the memory and RAM-Kickstart is not activated what gives you more compatibility with games.
As you can see a little CPLD space can replace the need of a MMU for such simple things.
15 Apr 2011 04:41
|You basically told me what i was already planning to do. ;)|
Difference between your and mine idea is i was planning on using a full 1MB for ROM Area so i would be upwards compatible when AROS has their Kickstart ready.
Btw how much memory can AOS handle?
15 Apr 2011 09:03
|If that was your idea why do you write a MMU is needed? just to prove us wrong or why?|
1MB Kickstart is possible but needs some tricks to get it working. I gave you already the links with the needed info.
Jens Schoenfelds new A1200 Turbocard solves the Kickstart quite alike.
An alternative would be 512 MB expansion rom + 512 MB Kickstart from the hardware side same but easier from software side.
Classic Amiga (500, 2000 also 1200 because of the castrated CPU) can handle up to 2 MB chipram + 8 mb fastram (CPU limit 16MB).
When using a full 68020 or greater (CPU limit 4GB) up to 2GB are possible as AOS interpretes adresses > 2 GB as signed < 0 what indicates an error.
Also some MB of adressspace is reserved for IO.
The maximum usefull memory for such a slow CPU is around 64-256 MB.
99.x% of the AMIGA software will not make use of more than 32 MB.
Just some professional 3D-rendering software will gain from it.
As HDD is often to slow for fullscreen video (remind mp2 and mp4 can not be done in software on this CPUs) a RAM-disk can be very usefull for playback of animations.
People tested Amigas with more than 1 GB but just to prove it's possible.
You should use 5V tolerant SRAMs to keep it simple and payable and think how much is really use full to my opinion 32 or 64 MB is enough. Don't think about using SDRAM or DDRRAM you need to adopt voltage and take care for refresh, adopt the timing etc. you will need your complete CPLD for doing that and maybe more. Also expensive tools (multichannel highspeed logicanalyzers and the knowledge how to use them) and 4 layer PCBs are needed.
15 Apr 2011 09:21
|I do not think you will get this finished without professional help.|
(I can not offer this to you)
My strong recomandation try to get the files for the a500 replacement board. If the board of this NL guy does not work fix it first this will give you enough experience to improve the design.
Some possible improvements:
replace kickstart with ICP-flash 1MB
change RAM to your needs
implement IDE interfaced
maybe change design to AGA by using A1200 chips
take care that other extensions work: e.g. indivision, usb cards, network cards, maybe georg brauns overdrive board with 68060
Most important don't try to do everything at once.
Get one thing working than start with the next thing.
15 Apr 2011 19:46
|Okay let's get specs in one line this is what i plane to do with my DIY board.|
-Altera CLPD probably the MAX 3000A series (EPM3128A or EPM3256A depending on the Size of the gate array)
-ATA revision 2, both IDE and CF interfaces (hoped i would be able to use higher but i am limited have been limited without breaking A600 code)
-For the expanded memory i would keep to the 3000 memory map relocating the kickstart to the first MB of the expansion memory on a 3000 memory map.
-Memory as much as i am allowed to use.
speed rating is still in the dark this would depend on what i can get my hands on.
FYI Stefan i am making the board where i currently work, using a milling cutter to make a proto-board.
Using SMD components over conventional one's where i can.(beats having to get VIA's in the board. ;))
15 Apr 2011 21:41
|Btw old A3000 had only 2x 256 KB "bootstraproms" (in reality they where modified beta roms) and could boot the kickstart from floppy or scsi hdd but used MMU.|
You should do a replacement board instead of a piggyback that should be much easier to route as 2 layer pcb.
So it would be basically a A3000 schematics made fit for the A500 case. The CPU board would be integrated on the mainboard and does not have zorro III slots nor flickerfixer and scsi.
Having more than 256 MB of ram is like having a Win98 maschine with 4 GB that can not be utilised or in other words just a waste of money.
Are you sure your milling cutter is good enough for modern chips like the max 3000A? Milled pcbs I have seen where all of worse quality than home made etched ones.
16 Apr 2011 05:59
|It depends on the operator how well a milling cutter works.|
Besides that do you know the number of Via's in a 500 board?!?
Seriously the amber chip is one of the reasons i am doing this.
the three other reasons are i am getting a little bothered by needing to swap floppies all the time hence the HDD.
the 68EC030 will give a nice speed boost while remaining Asychrone with the bus and allows adding a 68882.
And Added RAM.
5 reasons i have to do this project.
16 Apr 2011 10:00
|There are a lot of VIAs but most of them are also throughholes.|
Did you get a wracked A3000? The amberchips and the rest of the flickerfixer is not so easy to get nowadays (found one chip on hood EXTERNAL LINK and one Flickerfixer A2320 on ebay EXTERNAL LINK )
The A2320 can be used inside A500 with denise adapter.
Do you already have the CPU and FPU? If yes what speedgrade?
For what do you need the FPU? Raytracing? I would prefere to go sync and skip the FPU this will give you more far more power as memory interface is much faster and the chip could be clocked at 28 or 56 MHz. Mostly benchmarks and raytracing software will gain from the FPU. But for Raytracing the Amiga with 030 is still to slow. For the standard software the FPU will be a brake.
16 Apr 2011 18:41
|I can make a Denise adapter that is easy.|
Stefan i am reading the 68030 tech manual on the matter mind if I talk about the pro's and con's of a FPU on the bus in a later post?
16 Apr 2011 21:42
|That's why I asked you if you alread have the chips and what speedrating they have. If you want maximum speed try to do a sync interface, thats should be also easier to do. For the A500 28 MHz would be easy to get doubled it would be 56 MHz. The 50 MHz version can usually be clocked to 56 MHz at least the ceramic ones with metal heatspreader.|
For me a MMU would be nearly more important than a FPU but both are not really needed for 99% of the Amiga software.
Maybe it would be intelligent to use a socket for the CPU and make the design compatible to this card: EXTERNAL LINK so you can later easiely update to a 68040 or 68060.
Btw I have one of this A2320 Flickerfixers but i'm not willing to sell cheaper as the ebay guy. Also I modded it to fit into my A4000, and it's a fully working prototype board I got from the commodore leftovers.
27 Apr 2011 19:50
|Say does anyone know where i can 'get' either to original ROM's for a 2630 accelerator board rev 7 or up?|
I suppose the Images of those ROM's would suffice though.
01 May 2011 21:25
|Jakob Eriksson wrote:|
I didn't understand the part about DRAM, SRAM...
DRAM Dynamic Random Access Memory, SRAM Static Random Access Memory.
DRAM uses a capacitator these wear out on some cheaper RAM's.
FPGA's the cheap ones use a form of SRAM within of which the gates wear our and the smaller feature size and faster clock speeds Aid this wearing out.
Resulting over time that some SRAM cells show some wrong information in them because they are switched into a wrong state.
Silicon viberates on the frequency of it's clock or one of the frequency resonate that coincides with the clock more current creates more heat and effectively evaporates gates.
So it is something that that effect all electronic devices.
What matters here a lot is feature size smaller sizes last shorter.(less room for error)
Current is a variable since the voltage is set to a level .(ohm's law U=I*R, P=U*I, P==Watt/s)
Frequency, the higher this is the more the silicon viberate along with it.
Higher Current, More Heat, Viberation.(nearly sounds like magnets to me)
A prolonged period of time would be 12 years.
PS: Pure silicon is a resistor near 0 Kalvin.
03 May 2011 23:48
|Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:|
Say does anyone know where i can 'get' either to original ROM's for a 2630 accelerator board rev 7 or up?
I suppose the Images of those ROM's would suffice though.
Ask here salva(at)amigamesse.de for EXTERNAL LINK (link is broken)
04 May 2011 01:05
|Maybe something here is of use:|
13 May 2011 15:06
|I have been reading a lot and working on this for quite sometime.|
And i have thus come to this conclusion.
You can very easy Make a Amiga run faster, a lot faster.
But there are a few things that will blow up in your face if your not careful.
A few things you need to do this correctly is.
1. A Agnus that generate the 14M clock nearly all fat Agnus's do this if not all.
2. A MC68SEC000, MC68HC000 or a MC68EC000 with a rating of minimal 16MHz.(MC68HC001 will do too but is rare to find)
3. A Gayle chip to generate the E clock signal correctly, Not vital but does saves quite a few headaches on correctly programmed games and timed software.
The added value of Gayle, for the true measure of this one should read listen or watch to what Dave Haynie has to say about the 600.
IMHO it messes up the Memory map pretty much, Which as a result makes future expansion harder to do correctly.
To give some examples from the OCS and ECS systems.
The initial MAP
$200000-$9FFFFF Potential Fast-RAM
$BFD000-$BFDF00 PIA B even addresses
$BFE001-$BFEF00 PIA C odd addresses
$C00000-$DFEFFF Reserved for expansion
$DFF000-$DFFFFF Custom Chip Registers
$E80000-$EFFFFF Expansion ports
$F00000-$FFFFFF System ROM
The follow up A500+
$200000-$9FFFFF Primary auto-config space (FAST-RAM)
$BFD000-$BFDF00 CIA Even addresses
$BFE000-$BFEF00 CIA Odd addresses
$C00000-$C7FFFF Trap door expansion(Pseudo-fast, Slow RAM)
$DFF000-$DFFFFF Custom Chip Registers
$E80000-$EFFFFF auto-config space
The big boy A3000
$00000000-$001FFFFF Chip RAM
$00200000-$009FFFFF Auto-config space
$00A00000-$00B7FFFF Zorro I/O space
$00BFD000-$00BFDF00 CIA even addresses
$00BFE000-$00BFEF00 CIA odd addresses
$00C00000-$00C7FFFF A500 Magic Memory, not used on the A3000
$00DD0000-$00DDFFFF SCSI control
$00DE0000-$00DEFFFF Motherboard resources
$00DFF000-$00DFFFFF Custom Chip Registers
$00E80000-$00E8FFFF auto config space
$00F00000-$00F7FFFF Diagnostic ROM (reserved)
$04000000-$07FFFFFF Motherboard Fast RAM
$08000000-$0FFFFFFF Coprocessor Slot Expansion
$10000000-$7FFFFFFF Zorro III Expansion
$FF000000-$FF00FFFF Zorro III Configuration Unit
GARY's Bank switching
D80000-DB0000 NNAC (non auto config for RTC)
000000-1FFFFF NROM if OVR asserted
Address decoder accident called Gayle
000000-1FFFFF Chip RAM
200000-3FFFFF Zorro II expansion space
400000-7FFFFF Credit card memory if CC present (ZII otherwise)
800000-8FFFFF Credit card attributes if CC present (ZII otherwise)
900000-9FFFFF Credit card I/O if CC present (ZII otherwise)
A00000-A7FFFF Flash ROM
A80000-B7FFFF System ROM Selected (optional workbench ROM)
B80000-BEFFFF not used
C00000-D7FFFF C00000 Memory
D80000-D8FFFF Spare chip select
D90000-D9FFFF ARCNET chip select
DA0000-DA3FFF IDE Drive
DA4000-DA4FFF IDE reserved
DA8000-DAFFFF Credit Card & IDE configuration registers
DB0000-DBFFFF not used (reserved for external IDE)
DD0000-DDFFFF reserved for DMA controller
DE0000-DEFFFF not used
DF0000-DFFFFF Chip registers (shadowed 8 times)
E00000-E7FFFF System ROM (1st half if 1MB ROM)
E80000-EFFFFF Configuration space
F00000-F7FFFF Card-ridge space
F80000-FFFFFF System ROM (2nd half if 1MB ROM)
All the data above is from the top of my head so beware for both typo's and errors.
anyhow I think about using the IDE part from Gayle and using the A3000 memory map for the addresses above the 16MB
PS Here is the memory MAP i am gonna use
$000000-$1FFFFF Chip-RAM (yes, full 2MB of it)
$200000-$9FFFFF Expansion Zorro and Auto config and all
$BFD000-$BFDF00 CIA even addresses
$BFE001-$BFEF00 CIA odd addresses
$C00000-$C7FFFF Fast-RAM (full CPU Driven)
$DA0000-$DBFFFF IDE space.
$DFF000-$DFFFFF Custom chip registers.
$F00000-FFFFFFF ROM (I measure this I will utilize a D-latch to swap Kickstarts _CS.)
$04000000-$07FFFFFF Fast-RAM for the 68030, growing down from $07FFFFFF
can anyone tell me some pitfalls on this, or does this look as a clean expansion?