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Alternative HAM10 and HAM13page  1 2 3 4 
Gunnar von Boehn
Germany
(Moderator)
Posts 5775
23 Jan 2011 09:52


What do you think about the following HAM formats?


10 Bit
-----
1bit = mode Bit
    0= Setting of high and low bits at the same time
    1= Setting of low bits
3bits Red
3bits Green
3bits Blue

This HAM format allows setting of 512 direct colors in 1 pixel.
And with the next pixel refine it to one of 260000 colors.

The advantage of this mode is that is does not color bleed.
You never have any really "wrong colors" as you can with HAM.

This mode could also be implemented with 13bits then it would work as direct color mode allowing the full ragne of 16,000,000 colors.

What do you think about this?

Would anyone help to research this and offer writing a tool to convert 24bit images to these modes and back for testing?
Then we could together verify how these modes look and if there is a visual difference to full truecolor.



Thierry Atheist
Canada

Posts 1830
23 Jan 2011 10:14


This is, if possible, is totally amazing as it is "compressed" without compressing/decompressing an image.... You're doing to images what you've done with sound!!!!..... THIS IS THE AMIGA WAY!

Of course, it is lossy, but GREAT for just games and quickie presentations (I think we could EASILY kick "powerpoint" to the CURB!!!!) but not for keepsake photos, serious DTP or the like.

Could animations be run like this? 32 bits could store 3 separate frames to display!!!!!

We could get real time video playback, and no decompressing necessary!

NATAMI RULES!!!!!!!!

Thomas Richter
Germany
(MX-Board Owner)
Posts 1425
23 Jan 2011 10:49


You would still have problems displaying smooth image areas correctly. Consider a linear luminance ramp from black to white. Whenever the MSB bits change, you need to load both MSB and LSB with the approach above giving an incorrect color, which then you can only correct on the next pixel. IOW, you would see stripes at the position where the MSB had to change. Such ringing/striping can be very disturbing, especially in smooth image areas (sky, water, ...).

Instead of loading the LSB only, a better approach would be to add a delta value to the RGB sample value, that is:

control bit = 0  -->  load value into MSB and LSB
control bit = 1  -->  add value to pixel value to the left.

Smooth color ramps are then easily implemented. Basically, the display logic would implement a DPCM decoder (differential pulse coded modulation).

Needless to say, this works better in YCbCr space than in RGB space. With 12bpp, components could be addressed individually.

On the other hand, who would probably code images this way if a true color mode is available? Drawing/rendering etc. is very hard, and if the bandwidth is available, I don't see the need for such tricks anymore. HAM goes back to times where bandwidth was a premium.

Greetings,

Thomas


Thierry Atheist
Canada

Posts 1830
23 Jan 2011 11:01


Thomas Richter wrote:

On the other hand, who would probably code images this way if a true color mode is available? Drawing/rendering etc. is very hard, and if the bandwidth is available, I don't see the need for such tricks anymore. HAM goes back to times where bandwidth was a premium.

That last sentence....

Bandwidth IS at a premium...

We have only a 150 MHz CPU and co-processors at our disposal. We need every little voodoo trickery that we can put our fingers on to get the high resolutions to work for us, maybe even stretching out to 1920*1080!!!! We still need it even if 1920*1080 still isn't possible.

Cesare Di Mauro
Italy

Posts 528
23 Jan 2011 11:46


So long, how much bandwidth is available in Natami?

Thomas Richter
Germany
(MX-Board Owner)
Posts 1425
23 Jan 2011 12:08


Thierry Atheist wrote:

Thomas Richter wrote:

  On the other hand, who would probably code images this way if a true color mode is available? Drawing/rendering etc. is very hard, and if the bandwidth is available, I don't see the need for such tricks anymore. HAM goes back to times where bandwidth was a premium.
 

  That last sentence....
 
  Bandwidth IS at a premium...
 
  We have only a 150 MHz CPU and co-processors at our disposal. We need every little voodoo trickery that we can put our fingers on to get the high resolutions to work for us, maybe even stretching out to 1920*1080!!!! We still need it even if 1920*1080 still isn't possible.

Apparently, truecolor is possible, so that problem doesn't exist.

On the other hand, on HAM screens (or DPCM screens), it is very hard to do any animation, interactivity, drawing, displaying windows etc. without distorting the visual appearance. IOW, they are only useful for painting/drawing and showing static pictures, all tasks that do not require lots of bandwidth by the blitter or the CPU anyhow.

Thus, what would be the use case for such a format? For HAM, it is backwards compatibility. For the new format, I simply cannot imagine a good application. Animation/gaming is *not* an application as you need to put a lot of complexity into avoiding artifacts. Showing pictures is not an application because that is easier done with truecolor in first place.

So long,
Thomas


Michael v. Parent
France
(Natami Team)
Posts 434
23 Jan 2011 12:29


what about a scrolling HAM background with sprites in front?

Would it be possible to have some kind of ham mode back playfied with a non HAM front playfield?


Wojtek P
Poland

Posts 1597
23 Jan 2011 12:48


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

What do you think about the following HAM formats?
 
 

  10 Bit
  -----
  1bit = mode Bit
      0= Setting of high and low bits at the same time
      1= Setting of low bits
  3bits Red
  3bits Green
  3bits Blue
 

 
  This HAM format allows setting of 512 direct colors in 1 pixel.
  And with the next pixel refine it to one of 260000 colors.
 
  The advantage of this mode is that is does not color bleed.
  You never have any really "wrong colors" as you can with HAM.
 
 
  This mode could also be implemented with 13bits then it would work as direct color mode allowing the full ragne of 16,000,000 colors.
 
 
 
  What do you think about this?
 
  Would anyone help to research this and offer writing a tool to convert 24bit images to these modes and back for testing?
  Then we could together verify how these modes look and if there is a visual difference to full truecolor.
 
 

Great but YCbCr HAM10 (or HAM8) would be better.
Simple HAM8-YCbCr:

high bit=1, 7 low bits sets Y
high bit=0, bit 6=0 - set Cb
high bit=0, bit 6=1 - set Cr

Wojtek P
Poland

Posts 1597
23 Jan 2011 12:57


Cesare Di Mauro wrote:

So long, how much bandwidth is available in Natami?

32-bit chipmem at 800Mb/s*pin=3.2GB/s maximum memory bandwidth.


Cesare Di Mauro
Italy

Posts 528
23 Jan 2011 12:57


Michael V. Parent wrote:

what about a scrolling HAM background with sprites in front?
 
  Would it be possible to have some kind of ham mode back playfied with a non HAM front playfield?

Horizontal scrolling in (traditional) HAM mode produces display artifacts.

Wojtek P
Poland

Posts 1597
23 Jan 2011 12:58


Thomas Richter wrote:

Thierry Atheist wrote:

 
Thomas Richter wrote:

  On the other hand, who would probably code images this way if a true color mode is available? Drawing/rendering etc. is very hard, and if the bandwidth is available, I don't see the need for such tricks anymore. HAM goes back to times where bandwidth was a premium.
 

  That last sentence....
 
  Bandwidth IS at a premium...
 
  We have only a 150 MHz CPU and co-processors at our disposal. We need every little voodoo trickery that we can put our fingers on to get the high resolutions to work for us, maybe even stretching out to 1920*1080!!!! We still need it even if 1920*1080 still isn't possible.
 

  Apparently, truecolor is possible, so that problem doesn't exist.
 
  On the other hand, on HAM screens (or DPCM screens), it is very hard to do any animation, interactivity, drawing, displaying windows etc. without distorting the visual appearance. IOW, they are only useful for painting/drawing and showing static pictures, all tasks that do not require lots of bandwidth by the blitter or the CPU anyhow.
 
  Thus, what would be the use case for such a format? For HAM, it is backwards compatibility. For the new format, I simply cannot imagine a good application. Animation/gaming is *not* an application as you need to put a lot of complexity into avoiding artifacts. Showing pictures is not an application because that is easier done with truecolor in first place.
 
  So long,
  Thomas
 

but it's "hardware decompression" format.
You can for example make big 2D scenery in game that is scrolled.
It may even be precalculated at startup or loaded from disk, but with compressed format it will take less memory.


SID Hervé
France

Posts 666
23 Jan 2011 12:59


Hello

The increased bandwidth and the integration of true color mode does not necessarily rule out the improvement of original features. HAM mode aficionados may appreciate. Personally, I'd be interested in examples of pictures.

Thank

Wojtek P
Poland

Posts 1597
23 Jan 2011 12:59


Cesare Di Mauro wrote:

Michael V. Parent wrote:

  what about a scrolling HAM background with sprites in front?
 
  Would it be possible to have some kind of ham mode back playfied with a non HAM front playfield?

  Horizontal scrolling in (traditional) HAM mode produces display artifacts.

Which can easily be fixed in hardware.


Cesare Di Mauro
Italy

Posts 528
23 Jan 2011 13:02


Wojtek P wrote:

Cesare Di Mauro wrote:

  So long, how much bandwidth is available in Natami?
 

  32-bit chipmem at 800Mb/s*pin=3.2GB/s maximum memory bandwidth.

So, 32 bits fastmem will give another 3.2GB/s.

In the end, the total system bandwidth will be 6.4GB/s.

Fine.

Cesare Di Mauro
Italy

Posts 528
23 Jan 2011 13:03


Wojtek P wrote:

Cesare Di Mauro wrote:

 
Michael V. Parent wrote:

  what about a scrolling HAM background with sprites in front?
   
    Would it be possible to have some kind of ham mode back playfied with a non HAM front playfield?

  Horizontal scrolling in (traditional) HAM mode produces display artifacts.
 

Which can easily be fixed in hardware.

There's no way, with the ordinary HAM.

Thomas Richter
Germany
(MX-Board Owner)
Posts 1425
23 Jan 2011 13:06


Wojtek P wrote:

    Horizontal scrolling in (traditional) HAM mode produces display artifacts.
 
  Which can easily be fixed in hardware.
 
 

  Not at all. HAM (and related DPCM formats) require the knowledge of the previous pixel, i.e. the pixel whose color is supposed to be modified. However, if that pixel is scrolled out of the screen, it is never fetched by the display DMA, and hence potentially several bytes, or even KBytes away from the active video DMA memory. Hence, no chance of getting the color fixed, the pixel is never seen by the DMA. You need to fixup the left border by software to get rid of artifacts, and hence cause additional complexity.
 
  Greetings,
 
  Thomas
 
  PS: Just because a feature would have been nice in 1984, it no longer need to be cool in 2011 - please remember this. With truecolor available, there is no longer the need for such tricks.
 
 

Claudio Wieland
Germany
(Natami Team)
Posts 706
23 Jan 2011 13:09


I agree 100% to Thomas Richter. There is a difference between being retro and being out of date.

Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands

Posts 3991
23 Jan 2011 13:22


Wojtek it cannot be fixed in hardware, but IIRC if you over draw it could work but this is limited in usefulness like fighting games like mortal combat and street fighter.

Vertical scroll like 1942 and other games like that do not have the HAM artifact problem.

But i think it has been said before moving images in HAM format are very hard to correctly.


Claudio Wieland
Germany
(Natami Team)
Posts 706
23 Jan 2011 13:32


As soon as the playfield can also scroll to the sides, when the playfield is broader, it won't work anymore, too.

SID Hervé
France

Posts 666
23 Jan 2011 13:52


The richness of hardware is not only in its power or its ease but also in its capabilities. Having several options available to reach a result may not be a bad thing. This prevents the uniformity. And if these two new modes do not affect any new abilities, the difficulty of their implementation should not be an argument against.

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