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Thierry Atheist Canada
| | Posts 1828 02 Mar 2012 02:44
| How would one digitize video with a NatAmi or sample audio? How about voice recognition? Possible?
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Rafael Rafafredd Brazil
| | Posts 21 14 Mar 2012 01:59
| Hi. I post only now and then. I am not very technically inclined. I am audio and music inclined, and have lots of expericence with audio and MIDI production with almost all OSs and systems of the last 30 years, including AMIGA, ATARI, OLDER MACs (OS7-9), NEXT, OSX, LINUX, BSD, WINDOWS, Other UNIXes, etc... Also dedicated ones like Tascam, ALESIS, Radar, Mackie, etc... I just love audio systems. So this is my take on this one: Sorry, I do not think audio DSP should be hardware implemented. It should be software implemented. On the audio side, NATAMI only needs good AD and DA converters. Direct digital I/Os would also be nice. ADAT 8-channel lighpipe I/Os maybe in future versions or audio directed versions would be a dream. On the software side, we need good fast and stable low latency drivers. Internal signal routing in the driver is also needed for pro work. It is a MUST! If you want professional audio people to use natami for studio work, consider writing a driver for at least one of a mainstream audio solutions on the market with at least 24 channel I/O. I would say RME PCI cards, or MOTU but YMMV. DSP wise, someone could concentrate into writing libraries to make use of the 3D Core power as DSP audio effects number crunchers. Also, this idea could be expanded as a CUDA like library collection to make easier for anyone to use the new SAGA Blitter and the 3D Core as number crunchers for any purpose.
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Jakob Eriksson Sweden
| | (Moderator) Posts 1097 14 Mar 2012 08:00
| I like your way of thinking. :-)
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3976 14 Mar 2012 09:26
| Same here i think there is a old thread that talked about this too. 3Dcore used for audio operations.
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Jens Drößler Germany
| | Posts 136 14 Mar 2012 21:32
| I already proposed ADAT in/outs a while back. I think the team does not fully understand the meaning of this and what this can do. It would be pretty easy to implement, cheap (an additional IC would be necessary on the board to pack/unpack the streams) and would mean a lot of flexibility audio-wise. And yes, using the 3D-core for audio would be a great thing. It will be there anyways and it won't be used anyways if we're fooling around with music software. Yes, pros would prefer a RME or Mark of the Unicorn interface, but: PCI is dying (so only second hand interfaces could be used) Pros would want MUCH more computing power and RAM Let's face it: Pro audio recording can be done cheaper and more efficient on a intel-based PC. The Natami on the other hand could become a new standard for people with "tracker skills" and ADAT in/out could raise Trackers to a new level!
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Golgoth 27 France
| | Posts 185 14 Mar 2012 22:17
| Maybe Rafael Rafafredd, Jens Drößler, and other people with a real knowledge in the sound could write something about how could be the NatAmi sound part and talk about it with the Team members involved in the sound part.
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Rafael Rafafredd Brazil
| | Posts 21 14 Mar 2012 23:59
| Look guys, Jens is totally right! If putting ADAT lightpipe I/Os onboard would be cheap, don't be fool. DO IT! It would be THE THING audio wise. Preferably two ADAT pairs for 16 I/O on abord. It would be the only computer in the world with ADAT I/Os onboard. The only small all in one computer with ADAT in the history! That makes a lot of difference for proaudio guys and musicians in general. It would be a dream come true.PCI is really dying. But with 16 ADAT I/Os onboard, most people won't need any third part audio interface. If needed, I would say pick a firewire one and write a driver for this. For the internal 16 channel (or even 8 channel) ADAT idea: still, someone would have to write good drivers with sub-5ms latency at 44kHz and also free signal routing. If you do not know what free signal routing means, take a look at LINUX JACK and also on a larger extent, the SCOPE FUSION PLATFORM (now Sonic Core XITE-1). This last one, in my opinion, is the Cream of the Crop of any audio system available today or yesterday. Too bad it is only Windows compatible. I mainly run windows today just because of Creamware cards. Have a look and try to understand the basic principles of free signal routing. If NATAMI can offer all this audio wise, even with only 8 channel ADAT I/Os, I am sure it will get attention from proaudio guys, even with modest processing speed and low RAM. Do you remember what we did with Pro Tools MIX and SCSI drives in a 64MB OS 8.6 Mac back in late 90's? Ahã!
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Rafael Rafafredd Brazil
| | Posts 21 15 Mar 2012 06:10
| OK, simplified free audio routing would be like that: - any application is a client with multiple sockets like ins and outs on the routing connection panel. Number of I/Os is defined by the programer of the application. When you load an application, it appears in the routing windows, with it's corresponding socket I/Os. These are called software I/Os, Or software source and destination audio sockets. - the physical I/Os (the actual analog in/out, SPDIF in/out and ADAT in/out connectors in the hardware) should appear as fixed sockets in the routing windows. Fixed means always there. It doesn't mean you cannot graphically move it. These are always visible. - For compatibility, there should be four I/O fixed sockets labeled "legacy I/Os" for legacy amiga applications and for anyone who wants to write new software using legacy compatible audio driver. These are always visible to. - Any software or hardware audio source sockets could be plugged into any software or hardware audio destination sockets. - Source audio sockets can feed many destination audio channels. I mean, all of them, if needed. - Destination audio sockets will accept only one input at first. BUT here is where some free FPGA space could be used as audio DSP and applied for extra goods. If possible, make many audio sources feed one destination, mixing the audio equally. That would make the NATAMI the most desirable live mixer and all in one studio in a little box ever. That makes a LOT of difference. This is a PLUS PLUS, if possible. AUDIO MIXING IN THE FPGA! - Using FPGA for effects doesn't make sense. EFFECTS should BE SOFTWARE only. NATAMI has enough power for these specially if we consider using libraries to make possible using the 3D CORE power for non-video CUDA like calculations. Note that new applications written for the NATAMI using the new free routing drivers won't work on legacy AMIGAS. Or you could even think about a way around it. Like: if NATAMI new audio driver is not present, use legacy, or stuff like this. I am not a programmer myself, you know.
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3976 15 Mar 2012 08:55
| the 3D core should be able to fill the gap for most of the required DSP work. Besides that 9 out of 10 times this would only be needed during audio creation and hence would not be required for play back since that can be in the default Amiga rank and file. I figure there is enough power to mix 16 channels on the fly. 5ms latency is a lot, I have MCU's here that at Amiga speeds (8MHz) have a such latency. Adding functions between point A to B or perhaps C adds latency this is unavoidable, questions is it acceptable?
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Vince Roazhon France
| | Posts 2 15 Mar 2012 13:05
| Hello to all, very interesant discussion about sound, I don't have knowledge about sound system of amiga so I don't understand fully the discussion. But I think the sound part of the Natami would be a major evolution for the pro musician. I like the way rafael try to improve at the best for a musician. I always have big interest in the music in general and I would like create some music and the Natami seems to be perfect for a beginner.Cheers to all and the team, I continue to follow discussion every day, I am sure you are on the good way for the future of amiga.
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Guillaume Michalakakos France
| | (MX-Board Owner) Posts 454 15 Mar 2012 13:19
| Rafael rafafredd wrote:
| Sorry, I do not think audio DSP should be hardware implemented. It should be software implemented. On the audio side, NATAMI only needs good AD and DA converters. Direct digital I/Os would also be nice. |
+1. Totally agree. In addition to this, this is easy to duplicate the softcore inside the FPGA when make a DSP take a lot of time. And I think it is better to have other softcore that can be used for everything than just only some operations... MOTU/RME drivers would be a dream, just imagine a HD192 connected on the NatAmi using PCI... btw with RME/MOTU firewire drivers could be nice too :-p But since NatAmi has analog audio input, thinking about a little, cheap, good quality analog mixer (like Mackie 402-VLZ3) could be a very nice way to introduce the NatAmi in home-studio's world.I agree too that ADAT would be very nice, but I really have no idea about the cost of the implementation...
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André Jernung Sweden
| | (MX-Board Owner) Posts 988 15 Mar 2012 13:45
| I love RME hardware. I run a Fireface 800. But if one wanted to make a driver for f.e. the Hammerfall-based PCI cards, are the specs and docs open? Maybe one can look at the Linux drivers. I think some of the cards are supported.
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Golgoth 27 France
| | Posts 185 15 Mar 2012 14:49
| Do you think it could be interesting and useful to use the NatAmi expention port for adding more sound connectics and maybe better quality sound componants (I/O, etc.), MIDI support, ADAT, etc ? To have a package for sound users and musicians.
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Guillaume Michalakakos France
| | (MX-Board Owner) Posts 454 15 Mar 2012 15:39
| I don't think we need to use the S-Zorro port for this. There is already a lot of good PCI cards that can add sound connectic and more. It is possible to have low latencies MIDI ports on USB. What we need is drivers... I believe there is already a support for some PCI sound cards on AROS.
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SID Hervé France
| | Posts 663 15 Mar 2012 16:10
| Hello One thing intrigues me : Does the 3D core will be powerful enough for an eventual combined use in sound and 3D production (eg, game)? Thank you.
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Joe M Norway
| | Posts 500 15 Mar 2012 20:41
| @All Wouldn't it be better to focus on Natami's sound chip Pauline before talking about external solutions? And why all this talking about drivers and stuff? "Drivers" what is that? I don't like the word. In the PC world drivers are required for everything, but on the Amiga? I don't need drivers to run OctaMED for instance.. ;) There's also no latency problems to discover. Please don't introduce typical PC-problems and or/ideas to the Natami. Keep it clean, fast and simple.
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Jakob Eriksson Sweden
| | (Moderator) Posts 1097 15 Mar 2012 21:50
| Joe, there is some weird shit that studio musicians use, that will NEVER be part of Natami itself. That is why we are talking about drivers. If you aren't interested in studio music, nothing to see here, move along... :-)
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Joe M Norway
| | Posts 500 15 Mar 2012 23:56
| @Jakob That's good to know :) I am interested in studio music but I'm not into MIDI and all that other stuff Rafael is talking about. Of course it's a great thing if the Natami can be used for more advanced stuff as well as demo music production. It just seems to me that people have too high expectations at times. Why don't people request a super-fast, optimized version of OctaMED SS or MilkyTracker? Something like that would be awesome, but perhaps I'm old fashioned... ;) So in theory you think it's possible to create better low latency audio drivers for the Natami than for other computer systems out there? For Firewire and USB devices for example?
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Joe M Norway
| | Posts 500 16 Mar 2012 00:06
| Jens Drößler wrote:
| Let's face it: Pro audio recording can be done cheaper and more efficient on a intel-based PC. The Natami on the other hand could become a new standard for people with "tracker skills" and ADAT in/out could raise Trackers to a new level!
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These are my thoughts also.
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Joe M Norway
| | Posts 500 16 Mar 2012 00:26
| Rafael rafafredd wrote:
| On the audio side, NATAMI only needs good AD and DA converters. Direct digital I/Os would also be nice. ADAT 8-channel lighpipe I/Os maybe in future versions or audio directed versions would be a dream.
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I agree. When will we be able to download some hi quality audio samples recorded from a Natami developer board? Guillaume, have you done some testing yet?Rafael rafafredd wrote:
| On the software side, we need good fast and stable low latency drivers.
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The latecy problem was introduced with Windows. Hopefully this should be easier to overcome on the Natami and Amiga OS. Try FastTracker II or ImpulseTracker for DOS for example. No problems there. I still use DOS based tools on the PC due to "jerkiness" found in modern software.
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