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Louis Dias USA
| | Posts 217 24 Jun 2011 00:28
| EXTERNAL LINK I bet those schematics would have come in handy...;-)
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Jakob Eriksson Sweden
| | (Moderator) Posts 1097 24 Jun 2011 01:16
| She rocks. I mentioned to her on IRC a couple of days ago it would be cool if she created an Amiga-on-a-chip. Then she said she already did, but that the toy company did not think there was a market for it. Cool she uploaded this video. I had no idea she had access to schematics.
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3974 24 Jun 2011 08:43
| Jacob which IRC? And besides that i can understand why the toy company didn't feel much for it. The C64 was seen near it's end seen as a toy machine, the Amiga just vanished off the grid.(to give a example) This would be a valid reason not to make a toy for it besides the toy maker him or herself could have been a user/fan and could have seen this as a insult to the still existing community. We can only speculate what they were thinking. Besides that the current community is still self sustaining which is a odd thing since there hasn't been a new machine to surpass a previous generation this decade. This doesn't mean her research should be useless, For example it could be used to improve the MiniMig. And it could at least pass the Natami's team review to increase compatibility on undocumented Hardware functions, not that those cannot be traced back with the A2000 manuals, but the original schematic's does make the whole task a whole lot simpler.
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Ajc ;) United Kingdom
| | Posts 688 24 Jun 2011 09:17
| I think he means the team IRC. Also the "toy maker" wasn't a small firm, Jeri's designs have been built my major manufacturers. Their decisions aren't personal like that, just based on what they think they'll earn.
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Louis Dias USA
| | Posts 217 24 Jun 2011 12:29
| Someone should see if you can get those designs from her. That's sorta why I posted it here. To perfect the re-implementation...
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3974 24 Jun 2011 13:28
| Louis it would be more effective to ask her to contribute to the Minimig. Natami is a evolution based upon AGA, this more or less means that having the designs would be a moot point. It's interesting if we would find a bug that would break compatibility in a manner that wasn't expected, but otherwise it would only be a neat wall paper nothing more really.
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Chuck T USA
| | Posts 672 24 Jun 2011 15:26
| AJC ;) wrote:
| I think he means the team IRC. Also the "toy maker" wasn't a small firm, Jeri's designs have been built my major manufacturers. Their decisions aren't personal like that, just based on what they think they'll earn.
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The Toy company could have put the project on Kickstarter to have seperate individuals raise funds so the company didn't have to commit. Once the design was a go, you pretty much have guaranteed sales. It is a no brainer.
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Chuck T USA
| | Posts 672 24 Jun 2011 15:30
| Jakob Eriksson wrote:
| I had no idea she had access to schematics.
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She has access to a lot more. This is her gig: EXTERNAL LINK EXTERNAL LINK "Element14 is an arm of Newark, which is an arm of Premier-Farnell, one of the largest distributors in the world."
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Jakob Eriksson Sweden
| | (Moderator) Posts 1097 24 Jun 2011 15:50
| These toy companies don't think like that. Either they commit fully or not at all. Not waste a lot of time with kickstarters etc. They have people pitching to them all day long with different ideas, it's better for them to pick some other of the 100 ideas they think they will get a big return on. AJC, it was some public IRC, don't remember where it was.
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Thomas Hirsch Germany
| | (MX-Board Owner) Posts 647 24 Jun 2011 19:13
| It surely would be very interesting to get a look on the original Amiga plans. I like reading the Amiga documentation really much - you might imagine. It could really be useful for tracing bugs and incompatibillity issues. But I can not base Natami on them. It is a different architecture. The original Amiga design idea is like having a DMA clockwork directly attached to the RAM. And the beat of the system originates from the RAM itself. It is an ingenious design. This is why I like(d) the Amiga that much. But unfortunately the world is not that simple anymore. Single DRAM cells are not that much faster than 20 years ago. What makes DRAM fast is the ability to burst. Bursting means reading many, many ram cells at once and shifting them out of the chip serially. Problem is that you can only start reading when the read address is known. This basically means you need to know the read address in advance. This creates a timely shift between the read data and the requested address. It does not matter if you are satisfied with the performance of the original Amiga design. But if you want to have more (or deeper) bitplanes, more resolution or faster ram access you need to take the burst capability into account. I learned that on the C-One prototype. I re-wrote most of the DMA machines according to that experience. The result for Natami is that the every DMA machine is a clockwork by its own, requesting memory content at the memory controller with has the only task of providing data to all of them. But the memory controller is not responsible for the internal cycle counter anymore. So - out of curiosity I would surely die to get a look on the original schematics, to learn how they solved problems and implemented their design idea. But to track down bugs an Amiga 2000 can also used, like Marcel said.
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3974 24 Jun 2011 21:30
| Thomas Hirsch DRAM has roughly 15 times faster access times from 70ns to 4.5ns. So let not that not so much improvement be in the eye of the beholder. ;)You completely right about the bandwidth requirements and regular DRAM not sufficing that need. I meant the 1987 technical manual for the A2000 since the PAL equation are included in it, and the clock is still written out fully in logic components.
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Thomas Hirsch Germany
| | (MX-Board Owner) Posts 647 24 Jun 2011 23:25
| Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:
| Thomas Hirsch DRAM has roughly 15 times faster access times from 70ns to 4.5ns. So let not that not so much improvement be in the eye of the beholder. ;)
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And you are completely sure that you do not confuse access time with throughput? - The DDR2 RAM I am using for Natami has "only" a CAS latency of 4 because of the low operating frequency of 200MHz. And has a RAS latency of one or two. And a page needs to be closed for another one or two clocks. So if I add that up I come to about 25-35ns. And when I am the beholder and compare it to 50ns from 20 years ago then I would say, yes, it is faster, but not 15 times. Or, what RAM do you have in mind? - I read about synchronous SRAM from ISSI which can be operated at 200MHz. I thought about that three or four years ago because with that the original Amiga RAM clockwork could be upheld. But as I heard the price I thought "ok, 2MB Chip RAM is enough".
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Louis Dias USA
| | Posts 217 25 Jun 2011 00:20
| What about that 1T-SRAM from Mosys? I head that's pretty fast and occupys little space...
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Thomas Hirsch Germany
| | (MX-Board Owner) Posts 647 25 Jun 2011 01:43
| Hm, I was on their website now... And I found some very interesting power-point charts of their memory architecture. But I found no reference whether they actually consider building ram devices - not to speak of selling them. So based on what I could figure out is that it might be worth to start a theoretical discussion. If somebody would like...
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Louis Dias USA
| | Posts 217 25 Jun 2011 07:59
| 1T-SRAM was used on the Gamecube for main ram. Low latency, quite fast. The successor was used on the Wii. 6T-SRAM has been announce by IBM for the WiiU.
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Megol .
| | Posts 672 25 Jun 2011 12:52
| Thomas Hirsch wrote:
| Hm, I was on their website now... And I found some very interesting power-point charts of their memory architecture. But I found no reference whether they actually consider building ram devices - not to speak of selling them. So based on what I could figure out is that it might be worth to start a theoretical discussion. If somebody would like...
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AFAIK they only sell IP for inclusion in ASICs :/ The best DRAM that's available is IMHO RLDRAM II but it's expensive.
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Thomas Hirsch Germany
| | (MX-Board Owner) Posts 647 25 Jun 2011 15:44
| Louis, seems a bit similar to the Cell chip, which would have been also interesting to use. But nobody was allowed to buy it - no matter what he offered. Except Sony.Seems that we are stuck on technology and parts which we can buy.
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Wojtek P Poland
| | Posts 1597 25 Jun 2011 18:01
| Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:
| Thomas Hirsch DRAM has roughly 15 times faster access times from 70ns to 4.5ns.
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Tell me who produce that fast DRAM. fast ones today have something like 30-40ns at best
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Wojtek P Poland
| | Posts 1597 25 Jun 2011 18:04
| Thomas Hirsch wrote:
| Louis, seems a bit similar to the Cell chip, which would have been also interesting to use. But nobody was allowed to buy it - no matter what he offered. Except Sony. Seems that we are stuck on technology and parts which we can buy.
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Well GDDR DRAM is faster. Quite a bit on access time and much more on bandwidth. Anyway you already have only 200MHz DDR capability ...Maybe with custom ASIC and total redesign it make sense.
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Ajc ;) United Kingdom
| | Posts 688 25 Jun 2011 18:24
| Chuck T wrote:
| | The Toy company could have put the project on Kickstarter to have seperate individuals raise funds so the company didn't have to commit. Once the design was a go, you pretty much have guaranteed sales. It is a no brainer. |
It is now, I'm not arguing against it I just thought you had the wrong idea about the "toy company" being some kind of tiny one-man-operation. Also back then kickstarter didn't exist. Now it'd punch through it's goal very quickly.
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