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Board Version That Fits In A500 Computerpage  1 2 
Pascal Sweden

Posts 11
02 Oct 2011 23:08


Hello,

Are there any plans to make a board version that exactly fits as replacement motherboard in a stock A500, including the connectors that come outside the computer on the back, possible with newer replacement for video, etc.

This would be great retro-fit for A500 users, and one could take up the production of new A500 plastic cases as well, and sell it as an Amiga 500S. (S for Super) =)

Pascal

Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands

Posts 3976
03 Oct 2011 04:48


the DB 23 connectors are very tough to get and aren't Rohs.
This means even if they did find them they cannot sell and export them if they use them.

Besides that do you know the price of a board that size?

Joe M
Norway

Posts 500
03 Oct 2011 06:39


Someone could design a case to make the Natami look like an A500/A1200 (personally I prefer the A1200 case since it's smaller). To create a new board specifically for this purpose would be unnecessary and expensive. The case should be tailored to fit the board and not vice versa. It shouldn't be too much of a problem for a third party developer to engage a Chinese company to manufacture cheap plastic cases and keyboards on request, but first the Natami boards must be released to the public, I guess.

Wojtek P
Poland

Posts 1597
03 Oct 2011 12:47


Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:

  the DB 23 connectors are very tough to get and aren't Rohs.
  This means even if they did find them they cannot sell and export them if they use them.
 
  Besides that do you know the price of a board that size?
 

  Just they have to define Natami as specialty, not common consumer product and
you may use normal solder.


Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands

Posts 3976
03 Oct 2011 16:27


Wojtek have you found the DB23's then i am looking for them?(spare parts)
 
  As for A500 look alike i would say the X500. ;)
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  Loriano also posted on site about this project. ;)
CLICK HERE

Jason S. McMullan
USA

Posts 35
03 Oct 2011 21:43


DB23s:

EXTERNAL LINK 


Richard GATINEAU
France

Posts 107
03 Oct 2011 22:20


Pascal Sweden wrote:
Are there any plans to make a board version that exactly fits as replacement motherboard in a stock A500, including the connectors that come outside the computer on the back, possible with newer replacement for video, etc.

  One year ago, I have suggested an external board concept for commodity and cost reduction:
A500: EXTERNAL LINK 
A600: EXTERNAL LINK 
A1200: EXTERNAL LINK   

Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands

Posts 3976
03 Oct 2011 22:51


Jason S. McMullan wrote:

DB23s:
 
  EXTERNAL LINK 
 

Thanks for the link but those connectors are for cables not for PCB's. ;)

Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands

Posts 3976
03 Oct 2011 22:59


And Richard using flat cable is a nightmare for board designing.(signal loss and all)
  I personally felt more for a two board solution to but then using the SZorro bus as interface.(still without documentation here)
  Fitting the main system on something the size our CPU card currently is including a header for IDE.
  And let third party develop further I/O boards and have a reference sold standard.
  Thomas didn't like the idea of interfacing that much through the SZorro, since connectors can be unreliable when used a lot.(mechanical wear and tear.)

And please do not reply to my rant, it's bad of me to even post this here.

Amiga Ppc

Posts 246
04 Oct 2011 20:50


If you remember, I suggested that set of cables and connectors is made as "kit" for fitting in A500 case. I don't know if that makes sense any more.

As i said in other post, I would like to see micro case and natami as Media center computer (beside TV). That could bring wider community to the platform.

Ralph Ewers
Germany

Posts 42
05 Oct 2011 13:45


Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:

  Wojtek have you found the DB23's then i am looking for them?(spare parts) 
 

  You could ask here: EXTERNAL LINK (german only though, you'll find the SubD-23 further down on that page as 'Stecker SUB-D 23 pol.' for 1,49 Euro / piece). Male version only.
 
  Another solution (if you don't mind the looks) is to take a widely spread SubD-25 and cut away the two superfluous pins (incl. trimming metal frame and plastic pin support to the size of SubD-23). Does not look good optically, but works and helped me occasionally in the past, when i could not get a SubD-23...

Megol .

Posts 676
05 Oct 2011 16:31


Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:

 
Jason S. McMullan wrote:

  DB23s:
   
    EXTERNAL LINK   
   
 

  Thanks for the link but those connectors are for cables not for PCB's. ;)
 

  Not a big problem adapting them using either cables, solid conductors or even two small PCBs mounted 90 degrees apart (one interfacing to the connector, one for the mainboard). Natami will probably never sell enough to make some manual labor a problem.

Edit: there shouldn't be any problem using cables, flex or otherwise.

Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands

Posts 3976
05 Oct 2011 18:24


Megol . wrote:

Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:

 
Jason S. McMullan wrote:

    DB23s:
   
    EXTERNAL LINK     
   
   

    Thanks for the link but those connectors are for cables not for PCB's. ;)
 

  Not a big problem adapting them using either cables, solid conductors or even two small PCBs mounted 90 degrees apart (one interfacing to the connector, one for the mainboard). Natami will probably never sell enough to make some manual labor a problem.
 
  Edit: there shouldn't be any problem using cables, flex or otherwise.

First of all thank you Ralph that is just what i was looking for.

And Megol flat cable is a bad idea they are very sensitive to electrical interference and besides that couldn't handle the Watts involved.(they would melt if used to power a floppy disk drive)
Using normal cables would suffice if the wires are thick enough.

Manual labor is too costly if i have to be honest a experienced solderer would cost about 12 Euro a hour (if not more) and keep in mind it would take about 5 to 7 minutes to make the adaptation, depending if it is totally hand soldered or is a modification prior to the soldering bath.(at which point you risk if badly soldered there is rework required)

Smaller production runs cost more then mass production, even for manual labor.

Erik Bauer
Italy

Posts 301
18 Oct 2011 13:36


Joe M wrote:

Someone could design a case to make the Natami look like an A500/A1200 (personally I prefer the A1200 case since it's smaller). To create a new board specifically for this purpose would be unnecessary and expensive. The case should be tailored to fit the board and not vice versa. It shouldn't be too much of a problem for a third party developer to engage a Chinese company to manufacture cheap plastic cases and keyboards on request, but first the Natami boards must be released to the public, I guess.

To have an A1200-Like case for NatAmi would be a dream...


Amiga Ppc

Posts 246
18 Oct 2011 20:49


I like 1200 design better than A500. I agree!

Jens Drößler
Germany

Posts 136
21 Oct 2011 21:35


I would like a version fitting inside A500 and A1200 very much. I see no big problem in making a version fitting even for both. Give the board the holes to screw in the board in both housings, don't put ANY outside connectors on the board (maybe the CF slot and IDE), only pin connectors and don't let the board reach to the part of the housing where the holes for the connectors are. Package a lot of connectors with cables on them to connect them to the board, so the user can screw them to the housing. Replace legacy connectors with an SD/CF card slot, Ethernet, USB2.0, replace the 23pin SubD with a standrad VGA or better yet DVI (who wants to connect an original Amiga monitor to a machine that can do a lot more in terms of graphics? I surely don't!). Don't mind the losses of the cables, even VGA card manufacturers use flat cables to connect the VGA connector to the card, Ethernet and USB don't need shielding on short runs, IDE is known to need no shielding besidesw what a flat cable provide.

I think it's a great idea and would broaden the Natami base, as everyone with a defective A500 and A1200 has an option to revive it in a modern way.

Megol .

Posts 676
22 Oct 2011 21:13


Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:

Megol . wrote:

 
Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:

   
Jason S. McMullan wrote:

    DB23s:
      EXTERNAL LINK 
   

    Thanks for the link but those connectors are for cables not for PCB's. ;)
   

    Not a big problem adapting them using either cables, solid conductors or even two small PCBs mounted 90 degrees apart (one interfacing to the connector, one for the mainboard). Natami will probably never sell enough to make some manual labor a problem.
 
  Edit: there shouldn't be any problem using cables, flex or otherwise.
 

 
  First of all thank you Ralph that is just what i was looking for.
 
  And Megol flat cable is a bad idea they are very sensitive to electrical interference and besides that couldn't handle the Watts involved.(they would melt if used to power a floppy disk drive)
  Using normal cables would suffice if the wires are thick enough.

Floppys are connected with flat cables in all computers I've seen? Hard disks too. Interference wouldn't be a problem, even high-frequency signals works okay with that kind of cable in most cases. VGA and even expansions were often connected with that kind of cable.

If you are refering to flat, flexible plastic cables (can't remember the proper name) you'd be right but still wrong. Those connectors linked above are made for standard gauge flat cables and that would work 100% reliable.
 

  Manual labor is too costly if i have to be honest a experienced solderer would cost about 12 Euro a hour (if not more) and keep in mind it would take about 5 to 7 minutes to make the adaptation, depending if it is totally hand soldered or is a modification prior to the soldering bath.(at which point you risk if badly soldered there is rework required)
 
  Smaller production runs cost more then mass production, even for manual labor.

Yeah. But we aren't talking about rocket science here right? Cables and connectors are very easy to solder manually so someone with experience and equipment should be able to at least 10 Natami-to-A500 adapters/hour including basic function test.
(sorry for the very delayed response :/)


Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands

Posts 3976
23 Oct 2011 06:46


Megol of the 34 wires in a floppy disk flat cable 17 are ground.
For IDE there is a 80 wire version of the flat cable of which again half is ground.

Megol VGA has a ground for each color.

HM, I am starting to see a pattern here that would explain the problems of using flat cable in parallel serial or game-ports.
And they have been used for the above in the past.

for the Atari standard game-ports flat cable is unfit, this has nothing to do with signal but with power requirements.

Besides that flat cable wires are one of the hardest things i had to solder since it's a single solid core and thinner then a CAT4 or CAT5 cable.

André Jernung
Sweden
(MX-Board Owner)
Posts 988
23 Oct 2011 12:01


Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:

for the Atari standard game-ports flat cable is unfit, this has nothing to do with signal but with power requirements.

 
Too bad. We are already using them on the Natami ;-)

Megol .

Posts 676
23 Oct 2011 20:06


Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:

Megol of the 34 wires in a floppy disk flat cable 17 are ground.
  For IDE there is a 80 wire version of the flat cable of which again half is ground.

UDMA capable cables use that. But it isn't strictly needed for short lengths of cables. Try to convert an old ATA cable so that it's identified as an 80lead cable(not recommended for normal use as ATA itself isnt't that reliable).

 
  Megol VGA has a ground for each color.

Yeah. If I'd have a dollar for each VGA cable that connects them to one lead I'd have... Well not that much. But it still isn't problem for the lengths we are talking about here. And it have to do with signal integrity and not power.


  HM, I am starting to see a pattern here that would explain the problems of using flat cable in parallel serial or game-ports.
  And they have been used for the above in the past.
 
  for the Atari standard game-ports flat cable is unfit, this has nothing to do with signal but with power requirements.
 
  Besides that flat cable wires are one of the hardest things i had to solder since it's a single solid core and thinner then a CAT4 or CAT5 cable.

There's no power problem for the flat cables we are talking about here! I can't see how anyone can come to that conclusion given the evidence of the contrary which includes video signals, Atari game ports, PC game ports, RS232, floppys (Shugart style) and hard disks. I've seen minicomputers (the old kind, refrigerator size) that used flat cables to connect their processing boards. My old Wang PC used flat cables for internal video signals (it had two graphics cards interconnected). Internal USB cables have at least up to USB 2.0 speeds used untwisted flat cables (out of spec but 100% reliable).

Just looked up specification on a cable with standard division and it is specified at 0.8A -> two conductors on a short cable (to ignore resistive effects) can deliver e.g. 5V*0.8=4W. If that's not enough use more conductors.

Normally this kind of flat cable (a.k.a ribbon cable according to wikipedia: EXTERNAL LINK ) have multi-strand wires and are easy to work with given the right tools.

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