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Team Chaos Leader
USA
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Posts 2094
28 Jul 2011 21:52
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I don't personally code in Java, but I know enough about it to know that it has its demerits. I think most people who praise Java without using it do so because they like the concept of running code in an emulator.
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Thomas Clarke
United Kingdom
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Posts 286
28 Jul 2011 23:01
| Team Chaos Leader wrote:
| | I don't personally code in Java, but I know enough about it to know that it has its demerits. I think most people who praise Java without using it do so because they like the concept of running code in an emulator.
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These demerits being what, exactly?
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Louis Dias
USA
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Posts 217
29 Jul 2011 00:10
| Thomas Clarke wrote:
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Team Chaos Leader wrote:
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The main reason that JAVA is "popular" is because that is what colleges push on unsuspecting students.
@Thomas Clarke
If you have found JAVA useful to you, then that is cool with me.
I only criticize the language, not the ppl who use it :)
I would sincerely like to know why writing code in JAVA is useful to you?
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I don't personally code in Java, but I know enough about it to know that it has its merits. I think most people who diss Java without using it do so because they dislike the concept of running code in a VM environment.
As for it's popularity being that's what colleges push on students, it seems we're looking at a chicken and egg scenario, personally I'd say the colleges started pushing it after it became a popular language for use in the business world, and the colleges wanted to give students skills they can make money with in the business world. As far as I can tell, colleges used to push languages like Scheme a lot more, which is a great tool for learning important programming concepts, but not so great when you're trying to land a job.
I'm a fan of functional programming languages though, so please do not think I'm dissing Scheme, I am not, I'm just pointing out that often colleges base their curriculum on what the market is looking for, Java being one example of this.
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LOL! I learned Scheme in 1991! Never used is again outside of school.
The JavaVM got ported to every platform under the sun and that's what made it relevant. I personally despise any C-syntax language.
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Samuel D Crow
USA
| | (Natami Team)
Posts 1295
29 Jul 2011 02:11
| Louis Dias wrote:
| | I personally despise any C-syntax language. |
So does TCL which is why Total Chaos is programmed with a macro language on top of C with a custom syntax-checker and indenter. The JavaVM is a stack machine which makes it inefficient to implement in hardware. It's been done but not efficiently.
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Ian Parsons
United Kingdom
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Posts 5
29 Jul 2011 02:22
| Java delivers what it was designed for, portable applications. Anybody that learns Java can write applications with a full GUI that'll run on Windows, Mac, Linux or various other OS's without having to know anything about those different OS APIs. It allows interactive content on Blu-Ray discs to work in players with different implementations of hardware and firmware. Virtual machines are everywhere these days, in phones, tablets, e-readers, laptops, desktops and embedded systems. A JRE for Natami might be a useful addition if it and Natami have the performance levels for usable Java apps.
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Samuel D Crow
USA
| | (Natami Team)
Posts 1295
29 Jul 2011 02:51
| @Ian Parsons The JRE you refer to requires 15 MiB of runtime library classes to be ported to the AmigaOS or AROS 68k. If you think it's useful then you can port GNU Classpath to AROS 68k. I personally think that it's not worth it. The FPC runtimes are being ported to AROS x86 now anyway. Object Pascal doesn't compile to bytecode yet maintains source-level compatibility with many OSs. It's even more portable than C since its all-encompassing runtime library includes GUI functions in its bindings in much the same way as Java does yet doesn't include the abstraction layer called Bytecode.
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Thomas Clarke
United Kingdom
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Posts 286
29 Jul 2011 07:48
| Louis Dias wrote:
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LOL! I learned Scheme in 1991! Never used is again outside of school. |
That's a shame, you missed out. Read this (N.B. As you should already know, Scheme is a variant of Lisp):
EXTERNAL LINK
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
29 Jul 2011 08:46
| Samuel D Crow wrote:
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@Ian Parsons
The JRE you refer to requires 15 MiB of runtime library classes to be ported to the AmigaOS or AROS 68k. If you think it's useful then you can port GNU Classpath to AROS 68k. I personally think that it's not worth it. |
15MB is like lower end estimate. And don't forget that java keeps it's p-code in ZIP compressed containers.For me it is a joke not language.
And exactly that is the reason it have so huge market share and it is worth billions. Just like every other crapware. The reason is that good software basically works efficiently and trustfully, client buys it and use it. Crap software constantly needs support, investment, "workplaces"
so it means constant enormous stream of money. That's why it is enforced so much.
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JeeBee McJibble
United Kingdom
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Posts 85
29 Jul 2011 09:26
| The strength of Java is the runtime library classes and wide variety of third party libraries to select from. This is also why .NET is very popular these days as well. Natami doesn't need it because Natami is about software running closer to the metal. In addition the vast majority of Java applications are business oriented - Minecraft excepted. That means in-house applications developed rapidly for immediate business needs, where performance is far less important than having an application that works reliably, that is quick to develop and easy to maintain. And Java is extremely good at business and server-side software. And Android, of course, even though Google went for their own VM and then spent a long time getting it anywhere close to the Java VM in performance. Java has shortcomings. No closures for a start. It also stagnated under Sun for the past few years. The JVM is popular for running other languages such as Python, Ruby, Scala, Javascript even (and Java 7 supports Invoke Dynamic to help these dynamic languages).
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Louis Dias
USA
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Posts 217
29 Jul 2011 12:42
| Actually it was Lisp. car, cadr...
"LISt Processing"Learned ADA too! Looked like Pascal but with object-based stuff.
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Thomas Richter
Germany
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Posts 1425
29 Jul 2011 19:21
| JeeBee McJibble wrote:
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The strength of Java is the runtime library classes and wide variety of third party libraries to select from. This is also why .NET is very popular these days as well.
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Indeed. It has very powerful support for building a GUI fast and effectively, and a lot of very powerful tools build on top of java. I disagree Natami doesn't need it - building applications efficiently, and even better - using existing applications - is a very good argument for including it. IOW, you get a whole software library for free. It is an excellent multiplier. Greetings, Thomas
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Samuel D Crow
USA
| | (Natami Team)
Posts 1295
30 Jul 2011 00:31
| Thomas Richter wrote:
| Indeed. It has very powerful support for building a GUI fast and effectively, and a lot of very powerful tools build on top of java.
I disagree Natami doesn't need it - building applications efficiently, and even better - using existing applications - is a very good argument for including it. IOW, you get a whole software library for free. It is an excellent multiplier. |
The brunt of my disagreement with you isn't based on the multiplier effect of having Java nor building applications efficiently. It's the dependence on the stack-based Bytecode format. The foundation classes are built on it and, unlike .NET and Mono, there's no AOT compiler for making native libraries (assemblies in .NET terminology). GCJ attempts to do so (as was noted in a link earlier in this thread) but at a loss of compatibility with existing Java applications. As I see it, if we're going to have a powerful and huge runtime library, it should be in native code so that the JIT doesn't spend half of the time translating code that should have been compiled natively at install-time. Also, if we're going to the extra trouble of making the NatAmi without abstraction layers, it goes without saying that the team will not support that in our SDK unless there's a very good reason to. I, for one, want to see what Chris Handley comes up with in PortablE release 7. Having dropped a few hints from my days attempting to design an object-oriented language known as Mattathias, I suspect this is going to be good.
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Richard GATINEAU
France
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Posts 107
30 Jul 2011 08:37
| Because Natami is FPGA based, the only interest I see to support JAVA was to "hard support" the Virtual Machine, instead of running it as an "emulator" like on other systems.
Now, I hope Natami will not come a "Linux like" computer, with many useless programs for doing all badly, instead of supporting some useful stuffs with the original spirit of the Amiga 68K.
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Gilles DRIDI
France
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Posts 107
30 Jul 2011 11:01
| Hello,
I do not want to spam this thread but I was thinking of Java for the WEB (Web browser only)... perhaps a light version exist !!!
With Java you have a VM and reflection feature that is the state of the art of language aspect :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection_(computer_programming)#Java
But remenber that BCPL was compiled to bytecode and that TRIPOS used it compiled to native code for a portable OS which becames the AmigaOS (no more fun with BCPL). If you want VM & BCPL read "Virtual machines" from Iain D. Craig Springer who starts with B . C . P . L . !!!
Otherwise with C++, you can play and structures well, your own interaction with the OS features and data structures, as writing a sound player ...(found Exec structures in C++ somewhere in Aminet or aros-exec tutorials).
You can also write articles near to assembler code ; I was thinking how "compiler's work" & how wit works with regards to native code and more with loader, i.e. "linker&loaders" from Levine MKP.
EXTERNAL LINK
I think that Lisp syntax is good for Amiga installer. Elsewhere you can read "Lisp 1.5 Programer Manuel" from JMC?, MIT for connection to mathematics...
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Mr Graham Bartram
United Kingdom
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Posts 34
30 Jul 2011 15:32
| I would very much like to see a Natami Java implementation. I use quite a few small science apps for molecular modelling, astronomy etc.. A lot of them are coded in Java and are partof my Open University degree course. Also, for those who do make Java apps for other devices, wouldn't it be nice if they could use a Natami to do that?
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
30 Jul 2011 15:58
| Ian Parsons wrote:
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Java delivers what it was designed for, portable applications.
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Nothing really special in making portable application in other languages. There are lot system-specific libraries, many actually work.And all todays cellphone software is written in this crap.
That's why i need to wait over a second, sometimes far longer to move from between one menu part to another in my cellphone. But of course not just java is guilty but parody of programmers that use it.
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
30 Jul 2011 16:00
| Gilles DRIDI wrote:
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Hello,
I do not want to spam this thread but I was thinking of Java for the WEB (Web browser only)... perhaps a light version exist !!!
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This "light" version is dead slow even on latest PC CPU.
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Samuel D Crow
USA
| | (Natami Team)
Posts 1295
30 Jul 2011 18:56
| Mr Graham Bartram wrote:
| | Also, for those who do make Java apps for other devices, wouldn't it be nice if they could use a Natami to do that? |
No. Java apps never bang the hardware directly and always contain a software abstraction layer. Java is exactly the OPPOSITE of a NatAmi.
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Mr Graham Bartram
United Kingdom
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Posts 34
30 Jul 2011 20:28
| So what? You could argue that Amiga is the opposite to windows. Does that mean that I should never use winUAE?
Should Natami users who code Java have to switch over to another machine to do this because Java isn't in the "Natami Spirit" ?
Your argument is quite frankly bizarre, I'm not proclaiming that Natami should become a Java based system or anything remotely similar so what's the problem? I stand by what I said, It would be nice if someone doing code for java (a lot of students doing computing courses for example) could use the Natami for this. What is the harm in versatility?
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Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands
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Posts 3979
30 Jul 2011 20:42
| Mr Graham Bartram See this as a opertunity to port it yourself and use the natami for that purpose.
I don't see a port done by either oracle or by the natami team software crew to do something like this.
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Do you have questions about the Natami?