| Some Questions and Reflections About Natami.. | page 1 2
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Marcus Hoffren
Sweden
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Posts 7
20 Apr 2011 23:24
| Hi! I just found out today about the Natami project. As i started reading about it, some things popped up that i want to ask about here.
- Will you be adding support for resolutions > than 1280x1024 in the future? I don't think I got a clear enough answer from your Q&A about that. Also, does it currently support any 16:9/16:10 modes?
- Are there any particular reasons (besides costs), why you decided to go for DDR2, PCI (instead of PCI-E), PS/2 ports?
- Are there any plans to implement HDMI support?
- Are there any plans to implement SATA support?
One of the first things I thought when I saw the mobo was that it would make a great laptop. If it supported SO-DIMM and the slot was put on the backside of the motherboard (think Amiga style expansion), it could've been used both as a laptop and stationary computer.
Many modern computer cases are designed to have a hole on the backplate where the motherboard is to be mounted, so to get easy access to mounting different cooling solutions. This would've been an ideal place to put a SO-DIMM slot on the Natami.
Also, had the Natami SATA support, you could use those lovely SSD's for a low power, no noise laptop (or stationary) solution.
That's it for now I guess :)
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Samuel D Crow
USA
| | (Natami Team)
Posts 1295
21 Apr 2011 02:51
| Marcus Hoffren wrote:
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Hi! I just found out today about the Natami project. As i started reading about it, some things popped up that i want to ask about here.
- Will you be adding support for resolutions > than 1280x1024 in the future? I don't think I got a clear enough answer from your Q&A about that. Also, does it currently support any 16:9/16:10 modes?
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It is planned now to support 720p but 1080p may be a bit tough. Still frames at 1080p will still be possible.
Marcus Hoffren wrote:
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- Are there any particular reasons (besides costs), why you decided to go for DDR2, PCI (instead of PCI-E), PS/2 ports?
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PCIe would take more bandwidth than the FPGA could offer. I/O ports on the FPGA are at a premium as it is!DDR2 is more flexible than DDR3 because it can stop a burst partway through a cache row. As for PS/2 ports, the USB stack isn't built in to the Kickstart ROM so a USB controller won't be active until or unless the operating system boots up completely. Most Amiga games bypass the operating system and boot directly to the game.
Marcus Hoffren wrote:
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- Are there any plans to implement HDMI support?
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No. Due to licensing issues related to DRM, you'll have to get a DVI to HDMI converter to use with an HDMI monitor.
Marcus Hoffren wrote:
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- Are there any plans to implement SATA support?
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No.
Marcus Hoffren wrote:
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One of the first things I thought when I saw the mobo was that it would make a great laptop. If it supported SO-DIMM and the slot was put on the backside of the motherboard (think Amiga style expansion), it could've been used both as a laptop and stationary computer.Many modern computer cases are designed to have a hole on the backplate where the motherboard is to be mounted, so to get easy access to mounting different cooling solutions. This would've been an ideal place to put a SO-DIMM slot on the Natami.
Also, had the Natami SATA support, you could use those lovely SSD's for a low power, no noise laptop (or stationary) solution.
That's it for now I guess :)
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As for an SO-DIMM socket, that is for RAM expansion. A 32-bit address space can only address so much RAM. The 512 MiB of RAM on the motherboard should be sufficient for any 32-bit Amiga software. You can use a flash card in the SD-card slot instead of a SATA SSD to get the same result in the current design. It would probably be cheaper this way also. Welcome to the NatAmi forums!
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Gunnar von Boehn
Germany
| | (Moderator)
Posts 5775
21 Apr 2011 08:06
| Samuel D Crow wrote:
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Marcus Hoffren wrote:
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Hi! I just found out today about the Natami project. As i started reading about it, some things popped up that i want to ask about here.
- Will you be adding support for resolutions > than 1280x1024 in the future? I don't think I got a clear enough answer from your Q&A about that. Also, does it currently support any 16:9/16:10 modes?
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It is planned now to support 720p but 1080p may be a bit tough. Still frames at 1080p will still be possible.
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Target resolution are:
1600 x 1200
1920 x 1080
These resolution should work fine for Workbench and even for games.
But for dynamic high FPS games you would want to use a lower resolution.
Samuel D Crow wrote:
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Marcus Hoffren wrote:
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- Are there any particular reasons (besides costs), why you decided to go for DDR2, PCI (instead of PCI-E), PS/2 ports?
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PCIe would take more bandwidth than the FPGA could offer. I/O ports on the FPGA are at a premium as it is!
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PCIe is not needed for us.
The NATAMI comes all inclusive so PCI is "only" needed as expansion port for using inexpensive PC cards like SATA / Firewire / etc.
PCI is fully sufficient for this.
Samuel D Crow wrote:
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DDR2 is more flexible than DDR3 because it can stop a burst partway through a cache row.
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Or in more simple words our DDR2 is more powerful and faster than DDR3 !
Samuel D Crow wrote:
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As for PS/2 ports, the USB stack isn't built in to the Kickstart ROM so a USB controller won't be active until or unless the operating system boots up completely. Most Amiga games bypass the operating system and boot directly to the game.
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Both PS2 and USB are supported. :-D
On PS2 you can also connect original A3000 or A4000 keyboards.
Samuel D Crow wrote:
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Marcus Hoffren wrote:
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- Are there any plans to implement HDMI support?
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No. Due to licensing issues related to DRM, you'll have to get a DVI to HDMI converter to use with an HDMI monitor.
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Yes Sam is fully right.
DVI is much better than HDMI because of this.
Samuel D Crow wrote:
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Marcus Hoffren wrote:
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- Are there any plans to implement SATA support?
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No.
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Actually YES SATA support is planned, via PCI card.
Marcus Hoffren wrote:
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One of the first things I thought when I saw the mobo was that it would make a great laptop. If it supported SO-DIMM and the slot was put on the backside of the motherboard (think Amiga style expansion), it could've been used both as a laptop and stationary computer.
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The board comes with 512 MB of memory soldered on it already.
This solution is better than SO-Dimms for performance reasons.
Marcus Hoffren wrote:
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Also, had the Natami SATA support, you could use those lovely SSD's for a low power, no noise laptop (or stationary) solution.
That's it for now I guess :)
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Nothing is preventing you form doing this. :-D
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
21 Apr 2011 12:04
| Samuel D Crow wrote:
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No. Due to licensing issues related to DRM, you'll have to get a DVI to HDMI converter to use with an HDMI monitor.
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Can you be more precise about that?
You mean that you cannot solder in HDMI jack on the board?
DVI->HDMI converters are passive devices.What law do prevent you from that?
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
21 Apr 2011 12:06
| Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
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PCIe is not needed for us.
The NATAMI comes all inclusive so PCI is "only" needed as expansion port for using inexpensive PC cards like SATA / Firewire / etc.
PCI is fully sufficient for this.
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Definitely. And PCIe cards are both expensive and have HIGHER latencies. But 66MHz PCI do make sense... Lots of cards support it, even if they are not sold as such.
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Thomas Hirsch
Germany
| | (MX-Board Owner)
Posts 647
21 Apr 2011 13:20
| Wojtek P wrote:
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Can you be more precise about that?
You mean that you cannot solder in HDMI jack on the board?
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They were talking about a HDMI data stream. A correct HDMI data stream is DRM protected. A thing I do not want to deal with. It might work but is expensive. Most HDMI devices support unprotected data streams as well. This is what comes out a DVI connector. So if you just want to use a HDMI cable use a 50 cent adaptor for that. If we had soldered a HDMI connector on the board it would be confusing because the device can not generate a DRM protected data stream. And of course analogue VGA out (DVI-A) would also not be possible because HDMI does not support that.
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
21 Apr 2011 14:27
| Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
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Target resolution are:
1600 x 1200
1920 x 1080
These resolution should work fine for Workbench and even for games.
But for dynamic high FPS games you would want to use a lower resolution.
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This is OK, nothing more is needed.
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
21 Apr 2011 14:29
| Thomas Hirsch wrote:
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Wojtek P wrote:
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Can you be more precise about that?
You mean that you cannot solder in HDMI jack on the board?
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They were talking about a HDMI data stream. A correct HDMI data stream is DRM protected. A thing I do not want to deal with. It might work but is expensive.
Most HDMI devices support unprotected data streams as well. This is what comes out a DVI connector. So if you just want to use a HDMI cable use a 50 cent adaptor for that.
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Well - i though ALL have to support. At least i never had a problem using modern TV as computer monitor using DVI-HDMI adapter.
If we had soldered a HDMI connector on the board it would be confusing because the device can not generate a DRM protected data stream. And of course analogue VGA out (DVI-A) would also not be possible because HDMI does not support that.
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OK so not really a problem - you are right.
Good to stay away from stinking things like DRM.
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Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands
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Posts 3976
21 Apr 2011 19:30
| Wojtek P wrote:
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This is OK, nothing more is needed.
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I disagree since this totally disregards the 16:10 resolutions, I am not a fan of black borders. ;)
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Marcus Hoffren
Sweden
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Posts 7
21 Apr 2011 20:25
| Thank you very much for your replies, guys. I'm very satisfied with the answers, (besides the SATA one ;)). Very informative!
In order to build a laptop, an external sata card, unless angled 90 degrees in a low profile riser would not likely fit I believe. But I actually didn't consider the pccard option when I started this thread. I guess I was blinded by the blasting speeds of modern SSD's :).
I'll still be dreaming about future Natami's with SATA goodies and other stuff such as true 7.1 positioning audio... With 8 physical channel outputs ofcourse and so on. :D
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Jakob Eriksson
Sweden
| | (Moderator)
Posts 1097
21 Apr 2011 22:45
| Marcus, Compact Flash cards are available in very high speeds too and will fit nicely in a laptop.
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Thomas Hirsch
Germany
| | (MX-Board Owner)
Posts 647
22 Apr 2011 00:18
| Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:
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I disagree since this totally disregards the 16:10 resolutions, I am not a fan of black borders. ;)
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We are talking about an Amiga successor here.
Did you ever wonder why there are so many files in devs:monitors/ ?
In case you did not realize it till now, an Amiga is not bound to a dedicated display resolution. Listing all possible resolutions would fill a phonebook.
Marcel, I think you are smart enough to know all this. So don`t complain, start writing a monitor file which satisfies your needs.
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Loïc Dupuy
France
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Posts 253
22 Apr 2011 15:24
| Thomas Hirsch wrote:
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So don`t complain, start writing a monitor file which satisfies your needs.
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Why not, but how to do it ?And i was not sure that AmigaOs was managing pixel aspect, apparently it's the case according to this link http://eabmobile.abime.net/showthread.php?s=702b6f6ecd59def982c8e102e0ded4ad&p=674143#post674143
Otherwise you do not have square "square" on screen. Nevertheless, there is a problem, before all screens were 4:3, now you have a wide range of them. Intuition is pixel oriented, it does not use a virtual grid for coordinates to draw a "1cmx1cm square" whatever the screen in front of you you've got.
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Christian Kummerow
Germany
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Posts 314
22 Apr 2011 16:14
| Loïc Dupuy wrote:
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Why not, but how to do it ?
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I used
EXTERNAL LINK for modifiy Monitor Files. Get DBLPAL into the CRT-Monitor Range.
But there are some Problems, you have to be in the actual Mode on Workbench to change it. Means if the Mode is very out of range you cant edit it.
And i think it uses AGA Limitations. I dont think that 16:9 on a Amiga makes much sense, all games are in 4:3. Only useable for Workbench and some Videos, for the other time you require Black Borders left and right. Or you get a wrong aspect.
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André Jernung
Sweden
| | (MX-Board Owner)
Posts 988
22 Apr 2011 16:16
| Christian Kummerow wrote:
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I dont think that 16:9 on a Amiga makes much sense, all games are in 4:3. Only useable for Workbench and some Videos, for the other time you require Black Borders left and right. Or you get a wrong aspect.
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We are making new software for 16:9 resolutions. For example, the Stars demo game.
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Loïc Dupuy
France
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Posts 253
22 Apr 2011 18:53
| Christian Kummerow wrote:
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Loïc Dupuy wrote:
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Why not, but how to do it ?
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I used
EXTERNAL LINK for modifiy Monitor Files.
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Yes i played with this program when i had an A1200, succeed to reach 1024x768 on a commodore multysinc (but 2 bitplane max, otherwise, there was a funny bug, all the bitplanes were not horizontaly aligned, colours were false, left was monochrome, then 16/32 ? pixels later, the second bitplane was taking in account, another 16/32 for the next bitplane and so on, so each pixel was composed with bitplanes at different places). The fact is that in this case, you have to write a Devs file from scratch, so where s a documentation descriebing how to do it, going out of range of a monitor is super easy when fidling with theses parameters (ask unixian people before all the autoconfig wizards for X11)
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
22 Apr 2011 21:14
| Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:
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Wojtek P wrote:
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This is OK, nothing more is needed.
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I disagree since this totally disregards the 16:10 resolutions, I am not a fan of black borders. ;)
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What you mean exactly?
if you can 1600x1200 then 1600x1000 too IMHO.
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
22 Apr 2011 21:15
| Marcus Hoffren wrote:
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Thank you very much for your replies, guys. I'm very satisfied with the answers, (besides the SATA one ;)). Very informative!
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Simply use Compact Flash. Do you need 2TB disk on laptop with software that takes megabytes or less?
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Christian Kummerow
Germany
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Posts 314
22 Apr 2011 22:02
| André Jernung wrote:
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We are making new software for 16:9 resolutions. For example, the Stars demo game.
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And how did this look at a 4:3 screen then? With boarders or would the aspect wrong?
I dont think that i buy a 16:9 screen for the Amiga, same like a TFT it makes the picture blurry exept native.
Or maybe, the DVI can it drive VGA-RGB and DVI-HDMI at the same time? Maybe if im bored i could use my TV for 16:9 gaming.
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Marcus Hoffren
Sweden
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Posts 7
23 Apr 2011 12:31
| Wojtek P wrote:
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Marcus Hoffren wrote:
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Thank you very much for your replies, guys. I'm very satisfied with the answers, (besides the SATA one ;)). Very informative!
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Simply use Compact Flash. Do you need 2TB disk on laptop with software that takes megabytes or less?
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There are no 2TB SSD's available at this time. But I could totally see a use for one in the vicinity of 250-500GB. Not everything is 1MB software you know.
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Do you have questions about the Natami?