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Gunnar von Boehn Germany
| | (Moderator) Posts 5775 05 Jan 2011 16:13
| As we have discussed previously the original AMIGA hardware format was very clever. The original AMIGA audio format is designed to be utilized similar to a floating-point precision format. This feature can be used to increase quality - by moving the hearable window. We wondered if the audio quality of the original AMIGA audio is worse or better than MP3. Interesting question, isn't it? I would like to invite all of you to find this out with us. Here is a 20MB archive which contain 3 WAV files of a classic masterpiece. * One of the WAV files is the original. This file is high quality taken from CD. * One of the WAV files was converted to AMIGA floating format and back to WAV. * One of the WAV files was converted to MP3 and back to WAV. Please find out which WAV file is which - and which WAV file does sound best: CLICK HERE
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SID Hervé France
| | Posts 663 05 Jan 2011 17:39
| Hello Strange and dangerous issue. If one accepts that any appreciation is based on objective and subjective parts of the individual and their relationship, the answers may be colored.
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SID Hervé France
| | Posts 663 05 Jan 2011 18:41
| I open dance : MP3 : A Original : B Amiga : C but I have a doubt for the last two because the listening was done via a laptop.
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Ernest Unrau Canada
| | Posts 32 05 Jan 2011 19:00
| My son and I both think that Donau_C.wav is the original. His ears are only 14 years old :-) while mine are 55! But aurally neither of us can detect an obvious difference, neither through the computer's built-in speakers nor through head phones. We are of the opinion that the audio quality is slightly better on Donau_C.wav. We think Donau_A.wav is the one converted to mp3 and back (slightly lower quality), and therefore by process of elimination Donau_B.wav is the one converted to Amiga floating-point and back. However, we have another reason why we think your audio samples give away the answer - not because of audio quality. It's because only Donau_C.wav will play with Quicktime Player 10 [QT ver. 10.0 (118)] for MacOS Snow Leopard 10.5.6 whereas samples A & B will not play under the QuickTime 10 player. In fact, loading samples A & B shows zero play time available for samples A & B, although both files are 17MB. Sample C shows 00:01:36 minutes of play time. However, all three samples will play under QuickTime Player 7. Why that is I cannot say. All three samples will also play under RealPlayer version 12.0.0 (1444). The movie inspector for QuickTime Player 10 shows all three as being "Linear PCM, 16 bit little-endian signed integer, 2 channels, 44100 Hz" -Ernest
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Gunnar von Boehn Germany
| | (Moderator) Posts 5775 05 Jan 2011 19:43
| Ernest Unrau wrote:
| My son and I both think that Donau_C.wav is the original.
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Excellent guessing! Judging from the player incompatibility was very clever!
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J Grant United Kingdom
| | Posts 15 05 Jan 2011 20:41
| Listening via Asus Xonar Essence STX and Sennheiser HD555`s C is the best quality B is next A is the lower quality the strings seem to have a little more presence in B over A Im hoping that B is the Amiga format. The original Amiga wasnt too shabby in Audio if you used a high enough sample rate but the problem was the size of said sample afterwards.. with Natami coming with 256MB Chip this is no longer any problem!!! (I still love a good Chip tune tho! Future composer, Sidmon ect!) Thanks guys and keep up the good work!!
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SID Hervé France
| | Posts 663 05 Jan 2011 21:15
| There is a difference between sample A and the last two. It relates to the distinction (something like the identication) of instruments when played together (previously called "slightly lower quality"). This is particularly more evident because they are instruments of classical music. If the analysis had focused on modern music in which the "balance" (separate from mixing) is different (nearly no rules) then it would have been more difficult to assess. On the last two, my problem was my perception of the amplitude and the attack.
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Joe M Norway
| | Posts 500 05 Jan 2011 23:13
| Hi Gunnar, I've now listened carefully to the samples using audiophile headphones. My conclusion is as follows: Sample C sounds a bit clearer and more detailed than the other two. I assume this is the original. Sample A seems to have less details than sample B. It also seems it has a poorer stereo perspective than the other two (but not much). Sample B sounds better than sample A, but has lost some of its dynamics compared to sample C. I would rate them: 1. C. I believe this is the original because it simply sounds most musical. 2. B. I assume this is the MP3 version since most of the higher frequencies are still present. 3. A. This is probably the Amiga sound. It doesn't sound much worse than sample B, but since it seems to be less detailed I believe this is the converted 8bit sample (unless you used a very low bitrate for the MP3).
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3974 05 Jan 2011 23:46
| Another interesting note. Audio jitter is smaller on sample A, and i have seen some Alias errors this one has passed through several filters.(less tremble, sounds quirky when played next to another) And also Sample A is the longest of the three time wise. Sample B actually leads when placing C next to it it causes a echo effect, on some parts of the music. This is the shortest sample of the three time wise. There are still some alias errors but this is on the low end of the volume where it should be on a good recording. Sample C the only one of the three that would actually sync on frequency, Date of creation is the oldest of the three.(7:19:56) My conclusion is that C is the original. however which is the Mp3 wave converted is a mystery since it is unclear what MP3 rate it was converted to. Less the 64kb/s i would say it is sample A if it is higher then 128kb/s it's sample B. Anyhow the second one created was B 7:46:00 The third one was A 8:01:22 They all date to 5-1-11 they have no further ID tag AFAICS but then i didn't really checked for it.(call me sloppy) if anyone has questions about the methods i used i am in the chat PM me there.
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Thierry Atheist Canada
| | Posts 1828 06 Jan 2011 02:25
| The second person, Ernest, broke the "secret code". I think another test is necessary, as well as, maybe a modern song too.... from the 80s or 90s...
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3974 06 Jan 2011 03:34
| Thierry the tested files should not have a time stamp or at least a incorrect one. Second all forms of ID-tags should be removed from those files and Any participant shouldn't be able to see another participant's Review. If those things are met then can we call this a blind test.
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Thierry Atheist Canada
| | Posts 1828 06 Jan 2011 06:23
| Hi Marcel, Totally agree, we Amigans really are sleuths, aren't we?.... However, this test still doesn't disprove Gunnar's contention that it could serve us very well in the scope of the purpose it is intended for. Conversion, and back, does degrade the music/audio that is listened too. Do it with any lossy image compression format, the result will be the same, you will have a lower quality picture image later. Look at HAM images, they don't work across the board, but the results CAN be astonishing, especially in 1985!!!!! Crackling/hiss may only be because of multiple (de)compressions, and probably could be ironed out by just as Basil said, "it's completely different, it's a semitone higher!" Use a different volume or note as a hack and patch dirty fix.... So, it's not for "conventional full music output"; in that case use a real program for singing and acoustics then! For what we get, if the occasional blur can be isolated and rectified to an alternate satisfaction, it's pure gold!!!! NatAmi........ really Think Different!!
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Gunnar von Boehn Germany
| | (Moderator) Posts 5775 06 Jan 2011 06:46
| Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:
| My conclusion is that C is the original. however which is the Mp3 wave converted is a mystery since it is unclear what MP3 rate it was converted to. Less the 64kb/s i would say it is sample A if it is higher then 128kb/s it's sample B.
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Yes, (C) is the original. (A) is the MP3 file. (A) was created by converting the original PCM16 into 128KBit MP3 and straight converting back. (B) is the AMIGA format file. That so many people find that our AMIGA audio floating format file "AAFF" does sound better than MP3 makes me happy - as it shows that we have in the AMIGA a good file format for audio.
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Gunnar von Boehn Germany
| | (Moderator) Posts 5775 06 Jan 2011 06:56
| Thierry Atheist wrote:
| The second person, Ernest, broke the "secret code".
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Yes, Ernest and his Son were the first!Thierry Atheist wrote:
| I think another test is necessary, as well as, maybe a modern song too.... from the 80s or 90s...
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This is a very good idea! I've created a small collection of popmusic converted to A8 format. The files are stored in stereo. The archive includes the A8 player for Windows. Here is the archive CLICK HERE (130MB) My problem is that I only have MP3 for the pop music to start with. This means all the files were not created from a PCM16 CD rip but from a MP3. Therefore all AMIGA files include the MP3 errors to start with. Nevertheless the pop music files all sound quite OK IMHO. If someone can provide me with a compilation of pop, rock or electro sample sound for testing in proper PCM16 format (not MP3) then we can make a real comparison with them also. Cheers
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Thierry Atheist Canada
| | Posts 1828 06 Jan 2011 07:07
| Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
| That so many people find that our AMIGA audio floating format file "AAFF" does sound better than MP3 makes me happy - as it shows that we have in the AMIGA a good file format for audio.
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Oh how wonderful!!!I didn't know the following till today, interesting read: EXTERNAL LINK Soooo, IFF is big endian just like our CPU!!! What's interesting is this passage, to me! "An IFF file is built up from chunks. Each chunk begins with what the spec calls a "Type ID" (what the Macintosh called an OSType and Windows developers might call a FourCC)." You see it clearly there in black and white, microsoft (M$) administers "FourCC" or "Force" or they "Fourk" you, while we AAFFF or lAAFFF at them and their yokes!!! HA HA HA HA!!!! :-DDD
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SID Hervé France
| | Posts 663 06 Jan 2011 11:32
| Hello The comparisons are to do with classical music because the recording of an instrument is what is closest to its original, and the sound is not colored by commercial considerations. But the best comparisons should be done with the documentary records (eg wildlife). For pop, rock, etc., and based on my experience, the "Sound Studio" records are preferable because closer to the reality of the studio (eg, Chaka Khan "I Feel for You", Paul McCartney "Spies Like Us", Turbulent Blue "Fou, Fou, C'est Fou !"). It can be noticed that the "Sound Studio" is not a musical style. I hope that this can be of any help. Back on the initial test and compare the spectral analysis of the MP3 with the other two, it distinguished himself as much as listening.
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Gunnar von Boehn Germany
| | (Moderator) Posts 5775 06 Jan 2011 11:52
| SID Hervé wrote:
| Back on the initial test and compare the spectral analysis of the MP3 with the other two, it distinguished himself as much as listening. |
Actually I wrote a tool which compares waveforms. The results are surprising:
The 128KBit MP3 file has 60% more relative errors compared to original wave than the AMIGA floating audio file.
Who would have thought this?
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Wojtek P Poland
| | Posts 1597 06 Jan 2011 11:59
| Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
| | Back on the initial test and compare the spectral analysis of the MP3 with the other two, it distinguished himself as much as listening. The 128KBit MP3 file has 60% more relative errors compared to original wave than the AMIGA floating audio file.
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MP3 have just different kind of distorsion. your format introduces variable quantization noise proportional to volume (which is heard very little because of that). MP3 introduces change in frequencies - some are removed. Actually MP3 takes much less space but anyway for such simple trick quality is good.
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SID Hervé France
| | Posts 663 06 Jan 2011 14:17
| If I were to summarize the MP3, I'd say it's a compromise. Its problem is that it introduces a new degradation (often discernable by ear!) to a source that is already degraded. And this degradation is different from a simple reduction of the precision of the digital signal. Regarding the sound quality of the Amiga, it is relative to the quality of the sample. If it has very low frequencies and very high frequency, it would be better to spread them in two samples.
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Gilles DRIDI France
| | Posts 107 06 Jan 2011 15:48
| Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
| As we have discussed previously the original AMIGA hardware format was very clever. The original AMIGA audio format is designed to be utilized similar to a floating-point precision format. This feature can be used to increase quality - by moving the hearable window. We wondered if the audio quality of the original AMIGA audio is worse or better than MP3. Interesting question, isn't it? I would like to invite all of you to find this out with us. Here is a 20MB archive which contain 3 WAV files of a classic masterpiece. * One of the WAV files is the original. This file is high quality taken from CD. * One of the WAV files was converted to AMIGA floating format and back to WAV. * One of the WAV files was converted to MP3 and back to WAV. Please find out which WAV file is which - and which WAV file does sound best: CLICK HERE |
Donau_B is top quality Donau_C and Donau_A are worst but A is "sounds" clear to hear compared to C. My opinion, is Donau_B the Amiga format ? Happy to know from previous Gunnar post that this is it !
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