| 68050/68070 Vs ARM Cortex | page 1 2
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Greg the Canuck Canada
| | Posts 35 06 Oct 2010 08:49
| Just curious, but does anyone have a thumb-suck on how the 68050 and future 68070 cores would perform compared to some of the more recent ARM cores (A8-ish). Comparison with the VFP/NEON featues would be nice. I am mostly interested it the performance/mhz and estimated power consumption. In other words, is this product anywhere near to an alternative to the ARM cores? Even if it has half the performance that would still prove to be very interesting indeed.
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Angel of Paradise Germany
| | Posts 61 06 Oct 2010 09:58
| What value has this question? Lets assume the new 68K Cores will outperform the ARM clock by block - what does this change?
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Greg the Canuck Canada
| | Posts 35 06 Oct 2010 10:37
| Hi AoP - It makes it a great candidate processor for usage scenarios outside of the Natami product. I am thinking of other uses to leverage the huge time investment in this project.
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3979 06 Oct 2010 11:16
| Then you can better use the MIPS as a comparison CPU not the ARM.
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Phil "meynaf" G. France
| | (Natami Team) Posts 393 07 Oct 2010 16:23
| Both ARM and Mips don't have the 68k's ease of programming and this is IMO important for an Amiga.
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Samuel D Crow USA
| | (Natami Team) Posts 1295 07 Oct 2010 16:58
| MIPS is as easy to program if you don't mind stuffing NOPs into all of the delay slots on the branches. It's just not as powerful as the others. 68050's got good performance/ease of use and that's the main advantage.
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3979 07 Oct 2010 17:11
| Samuel is right. I proposed the MIPS because it's ISA not because it's performance. In a modern market the m68K ISA is in the same position as MIPS.I hope the 68050 will keep true to the ISA while making a leap on the performance scale.
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Ceti 331 United Kingdom
| | Posts 282 12 Oct 2010 15:06
| Phil G. wrote:
| Both ARM and Mips don't have the 68k's ease of programming and this is IMO important for an Amiga.
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I'm a 68k nostalgic but I beleive this is almost completely irrelevant with modern compilers & in the modern world. Also the load-store machines have been designed in part to be easily programmed *by* compilers :) writing code in C and improving the compilers has been the way to go for a long time.
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Samuel D Crow USA
| | (Natami Team) Posts 1295 12 Oct 2010 16:31
| @Ceti 331 I plan to write in C and C++. But I also plan on having a new compiler based on LLVM someday. I don't know how long that will take. It will have to be based on an x86-style backend modified for 68k use.
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Ricky Jones USA
| | Posts 52 14 Oct 2010 05:37
| Is there any reason why a 68k cpu could not be developed to the level of todays processors. Is there some sort of limiting factor that is not obvious to the regular user? Thanks.
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Megol .
| | Posts 680 14 Oct 2010 15:01
| Ricky Jones wrote:
| Is there any reason why a 68k cpu could not be developed to the level of todays processors. Is there some sort of limiting factor that is not obvious to the regular user? Thanks.
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There's no market capable of bearing the development costs. That's the only real limitation as x86 have shown that CISC can have excellent performance.
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Matt Hey USA
| | Posts 735 14 Oct 2010 16:00
| Megol . wrote:
| Ricky Jones wrote:
| Is there any reason why a 68k cpu could not be developed to the level of todays processors. Is there some sort of limiting factor that is not obvious to the regular user? Thanks. |
There's no market capable of bearing the development costs. |
I disagree. An updated 68k could carve out a piece of the high end ARM territory mobile multimedia devices, low end atom/x86/ARM netbook laptop market, and/or mid-range enbedded systems. There are billions of processors being produced for these markets. It's easier to break into these markets than compete with the high end x86 (duopoly) on the desktop. Some degree of marketing is likely required but there are plenty of customers out there that could order enough chips to allow burning real N68k chips. The resulting faster processors would be more competitive. What advantages does the N68k have to outsell the competition? Smaller code size, ease of use and open (royalty free) architecture. That's the only real limitation as x86 have shown that CISC can have excellent performance. |
True, but x86 CISC generally runs hotter than ARM because of it's complexity. ARM's simplicity made a lot of sense in the early days but it's now almost as complex and powerful as an enhanced 68k but not as easy to use and has larger code. I think the N68070 could fit nicely between the newer ARM processors and the low end x86 atom if it could move out of fpga. I think it would compete with the lower end PPC at that point also.
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Ricky Jones USA
| | Posts 52 14 Oct 2010 17:30
| Will the architecture need to be reworked to get more performance or will the multi-core direction be required? Thanks.
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Matt Hey USA
| | Posts 735 14 Oct 2010 18:48
| Ricky Jones wrote:
| Will the architecture need to be reworked to get more performance or will the multi-core direction be required?
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Most ARM and Atom processors are still single core. If more performance is needed, the x86 multi-core processors offer a better price to performance but battery life will suffer a little. I think the superscaler N68070 could do well in the single core arena. There are plenty of other ways to boost performance without going multi-core. I think multi-core is a bit overrated too. In theory, 2 cores can be up to twice as fast but that's if the software is perfectly written and the hardware is not sharing the same resources. It makes sense when more power is needed and it's not practical to increase the clock or add bigger caches anymore. The trend for mobile processors is to integrate more multimedia features like SIMD and GPU into the processor as this uses less electricity. That's kind of along the same lines of what Natami is trying to achieve.
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Cesare Di Mauro Italy
| | Posts 528 14 Oct 2010 20:46
| Matt Hey wrote:
| | True, but x86 CISC generally runs hotter than ARM because of it's complexity. |
That's true for 68K too, due to the decoder complexity. 68000 was a simple processor, and showed that can scale well with the ColdFire family (which dropped some features). 68020+ was a pain in the neck due to the very complex addressing modes (and some instructions), which brought instructions up to 22 bytes in length. ARM's simplicity made a lot of sense in the early days but it's now almost as complex and powerful as an enhanced 68k but not as easy to use and has larger code.
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I agree. ARM can be considered the CISC of the RISC family, due to its richness in terms of ISA.
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Matt Hey USA
| | Posts 735 14 Oct 2010 22:23
| Cesare Di Mauro wrote:
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Matt Hey wrote:
| | True, but x86 CISC generally runs hotter than ARM because of it's complexity. |
That's true for 68K too, due to the decoder complexity.
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I agree. I think the 68k is simpler than x86 though. I would expect the 68k to fall 1/2 way between modern ARM and a single core x86. That's not a bad trade off for ease of use and smaller code. 68020+ was a pain in the neck due to the very complex addressing modes (and some instructions), which brought instructions up to 22 bytes in length.
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At least the command part of the instruction fit in the first 4 bytes. Everything else is data extensions and we know the offset of where to find the data from the command.
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Cesare Di Mauro Italy
| | Posts 528 14 Oct 2010 22:40
| Unfortunately, index address extension word(s) need to be read before knowing the exact instruction size. That was the major issue for the 68020+ decoder.
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Ricky Jones USA
| | Posts 52 15 Oct 2010 00:21
| It sounds to me like 68K does have some more life in it. Maybe we will get some wider busses, more Mhz, and better instruction decoding some day. I will say that I kinda long for the classic Amiga hardware line. Runnig OS3.x will probably have the best Amiga feeling to it as compared to some of the clones available.How fast do you think UAE runs Amiga software. I acts like it can run it prettty fast and I hear that it does. Is there something about silicon that makes decoding 68k slower as compared to an emulator. Do you think a processor with a modern design could emulate 68K as to similar performance of a Phenom cpu? I hope I am not talking in circles. Thanks. Now where did I put thost optical processors? :)
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Cesare Di Mauro Italy
| | Posts 528 15 Oct 2010 06:01
| The problems with 68K family are the ones that I already stated before. Remember that now x86 means AMD64, which have a simpler ISA (many legacy instructions were removed, and segmentation also; there's a flat pagination model), and have 16 general purpose and (almost) ortogonal registers (you can use them as data or address registers). So I think that a modern 68K cannot have similar performances to a Phenom, but can have good ones.
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Gunnar von Boehn Germany
| | (Moderator) Posts 5775 15 Oct 2010 07:04
| Cesare Di Mauro wrote:
| Unfortunately, index address extension word(s) need to be read before knowing the exact instruction size. That was the major issue for the 68020+ decoder.
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This is true. This gave us headaches for quite a while. But we solved this with the 68050 design.
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