 |
Welcome to the Natami / Amiga ForumThis forum is for AMIGA fans interested in the new NATAMI platform.
Please read the forum usage manual.
|
 Do you have questions about the Natami?
Post it here and we will answer it!
|
|
|---|
Geoffrey Kramer
| |
Posts 21
25 Sep 2010 14:05
| How about the licenses ? I know you you must have thought that, but how will you do for the kickstart and AOS licenses ? Will the kickstart be sold with the Natami ? The Amiga forever kickstart will not work.
EXTERNAL LINK
Will the Amiga OS could be sold too ? As the 3.5 and 3.9 aren't findable anymore (i only have the 3.1). thank
| |
Flash Lab
Netherlands
| |
Posts 166
25 Sep 2010 14:24
| AmigaOS can still be bought from Vesalia for example. Anyway it was mentioned by the Natami team that they already have a legal solution to this I believe.
| |
Geoffrey Kramer
| |
Posts 21
25 Sep 2010 14:30
| Thank for the link. Could we know more about the solution ? People on forums still find a way to being anxious, and kickstart is one of those ways.
| |
André Jernung
Sweden
| | (MX-Board Owner)
Posts 988
25 Sep 2010 15:55
| We already have quite a lot of AmigaOS 3.1 licenses to bundle with the boards. I do not know if later versions are very useful, since they are doing software workarounds for issues the Natami solves in hardware. The same goes for a lot of code in the new unofficial BoingBags. The ideal version of classic OS 3.x to run on the Natami will have to be determined by testing, hacking and patching. :)
Anyone who owns an Amiga with a kickstart ROM is allowed to dump it with a rom dumping tool and use it in UAE. This should also apply for using the same ROM image in Natami.
As for the kickstart ROMs distributed with Amiga Forever - they are also easily usable. The only thing that is needed to start UAE with the Cloanto ROM and use the very same ROM dumping tool, and you will have a usable image.
Our goal is to patch the Commodore kickstart ROM with kickstart extensions. In the future, compiling a 100% free and opensource kickstart rom should be possible using AROS code - this is why it is important to get the AROS 68k port going.
| |
Geoffrey Kramer
| |
Posts 21
25 Sep 2010 15:59
| Thank for the answer. But for the Natami price (even if they don't know it), some people want to plug the Natami and wooohooo it's working (and making coffee). They don't want to do any manipulations.
| |
André Jernung
Sweden
| | (MX-Board Owner)
Posts 988
25 Sep 2010 16:14
| Then they would have to wait for a completed, fully working distro - or help out in any way they can to create it.
Everyone working on the Natami are just doing this in their spare time for fun. We cannot provide 100% finished software from day one - especially since noone but Thomas has a board to develop on yet.
We are not a big company with the resources to do that. But we work for free to give you guys a great new Amiga-compatible computer. And we hope that as many people as possible will help us out in succeeding.
"Plug it in and wohoo it's working" - this is not true for any classic Amiga either, if you do not use floppy disk-based software booting directly into a game or such.
Setting up a modern Amiga system consists of a lot of patching and installing. Fortunately, there are already good AmigaOS distributions out there like Amikit and ClassicWB that will help you a bit on the way.
| |
Geoffrey Kramer
| |
Posts 21
25 Sep 2010 21:00
| I agreee with that, but some people are professional cranks, and when it cost them some money they want it plug and play. By the way, do you have an idea of the procedure to install kickstart ? Will it be possible to flash rom with kickstart image, or/and use real roms ?
| |
Dag Jacobsen
Norway
| |
Posts 78
26 Sep 2010 10:35
| Couldnt simply Cloanto make a special AmigaForever distro that is pre fixed ? Dont they have enough licences for 3.1 etc as is to do this ?
| |
Richard Maudsley
United Kingdom
| |
Posts 821
26 Sep 2010 11:34
| André Jernung wrote:
|
"Plug it in and wohoo it's working" - this is not true for any classic Amiga either, if you do not use floppy disk-based software booting directly into a game or such.
|
Honestly my experience is that it's not true even for kickstart :p
| |
Christian Kummerow
Germany
| |
Posts 314
27 Sep 2010 19:23
| André Jernung wrote:
|
I do not know if later versions are very useful, since they are doing software workarounds for issues the Natami solves in hardware.
|
Your hardware allow without the new FFS Harddisks with more than 4 GB, new Icons and so on?
OS3.9 is not only Hardwarefixes by Setpatch.
| |
Thomas Richter
Germany
| | (MX-Board Owner)
Posts 1425
28 Sep 2010 05:35
| André Jernung wrote:
|
We already have quite a lot of AmigaOS 3.1 licenses to bundle with the boards. I do not know if later versions are very useful, since they are doing software workarounds for issues the Natami solves in hardware.
|
Hardly. There aren't any "workarounds for hardware" in 3.9, but an updated workbench, an updated shell, an updated FFS and so on. Where the copyright is depends on the individual authors, but in my case, the copyright fell back to me after two years, so I can certainly contribute the new shell, the ziptools, the new console, benchtrash and the math libraries. The same goes for Olsen's workbench, you might want to contact him whether he's willing to contribute, i.e. he and not Amiga or CBM holds the copyright.André Jernung wrote:
|
The same goes for a lot of code in the new unofficial BoingBags. The ideal version of classic OS 3.x to run on the Natami will have to be determined by testing, hacking and patching. :)
|
Hopefully not. I believe that there is good software out you may want to use. André Jernung wrote:
|
Anyone who owns an Amiga with a kickstart ROM is allowed to dump it with a rom dumping tool and use it in UAE. This should also apply for using the same ROM image in Natami.
As for the kickstart ROMs distributed with Amiga Forever - they are also easily usable. The only thing that is needed to start UAE with the Cloanto ROM and use the very same ROM dumping tool, and you will have a usable image.
|
Agreed, though you should note that kickstart != kickstart, and you need to specify which kickstart the users require. For example, the A2000 kickstart doesn't have a scsi.device, the A3000 kickstart has a scsi.device that talks scsi, and the A4000 kickstart has a "fake" scsi.device that actually talks IDE/PATA. If, for example, you need the scsi.device in ROM, then an A2000 kickstart won't work.André Jernung wrote:
|
Our goal is to patch the Commodore kickstart ROM with kickstart extensions. In the future, compiling a 100% free and opensource kickstart rom should be possible using AROS code - this is why it is important to get the AROS 68k port going.
|
The - for me - ideal solution would be if the kickstart wouldn't be much more than a bootstrap loader with almost all modules loaded from disk, i.e. RAM based. You can replace ROM modules by RAM modules, actually almost all of them, except for expansion and exec. The only thing required in ROM would be a preliminary exec version, a preliminary expansion version (both small enough to be re-written), a preliminary driver for the HD (maybe PIO only) and a bootstrap loader that loads segments from the RDB, plus a tool to prep the harddisk with the necessary segments.Greetings from Hongkong, Thomas
| |
Matt Hey
USA
| |
Posts 726
28 Sep 2010 11:46
| Thomas Richter wrote:
|
Hardly. There aren't any "workarounds for hardware" in 3.9, but an updated workbench, an updated shell, an updated FFS and so on. Where the copyright is depends on the individual authors, but in my case, the copyright fell back to me after two years, so I can certainly contribute the new shell, the ziptools, the new console, benchtrash and the math libraries. The same goes for Olsen's workbench, you might want to contact him whether he's willing to contribute, i.e. he and not Amiga or CBM holds the copyright.
|
Olsen is becoming more active with the Amiga again. He had been posting infrequently on EXTERNAL LINK for awhile but he has recently been very active on EXTERNAL LINK and EXTERNAL LINK and is talking about releasing the Roadshow (TCP/IP stack) for the 68k/classic Amiga.
The - for me - ideal solution would be if the kickstart wouldn't be much more than a bootstrap loader with almost all modules loaded from disk, i.e. RAM based. You can replace ROM modules by RAM modules, actually almost all of them, except for expansion and exec. The only thing required in ROM would be a preliminary exec version, a preliminary expansion version (both small enough to be re-written), a preliminary driver for the HD (maybe PIO only) and a bootstrap loader that loads segments from the RDB, plus a tool to prep the harddisk with the necessary segments.
|
I prefer that the kickstart be optionally expanded to 1MB and the majority of the AmigaOS moved inside. The kickstart would then be write protected on boot as Samuel Crow suggested. This would give us a minimal poor mans memory protection for the OS at least. It would not require a modified exec or even an mmu. Hopefully, we would get at least a minimal mmu with write protection bits which you could support with your Mu libraries and have MuProtectModules running too. I think both are desirable. It's not that difficult to edit a kickstart anymore. I use a custom kickstart with write protected MAPRom on my CSMK3 and it is very stable. Doobrey's Remus/Romulus make ROM editing very easy... EXTERNAL LINK
| |
SID Hervé
France
| |
Posts 663
28 Sep 2010 12:30
| Matt Hey wrote:
|
Doobrey's Remus/Romulus make ROM editing very easy...
EXTERNAL LINK
|
helloAbout the ease of Doobrey's tool, I confirm. they are really easy to use and very efficient.
| |
Sascha B
Germany
| |
Posts 131
28 Sep 2010 15:14
| Thomas Richter wrote:
|
Agreed, though you should note that kickstart != kickstart, and you need to specify which kickstart the users require. For example, the A2000 kickstart doesn't have a scsi.device, the A3000 kickstart has a scsi.device that talks scsi, and the A4000 kickstart has a "fake" scsi.device that actually talks IDE/PATA. If, for example, you need the scsi.device in ROM, then an A2000 kickstart won't work.
|
Actually the Kickstart 3.1 (40.063) for A500/600/2000 provide an internal scsi.device for the Gayle IDE port. Else the A600 or A500 with Viper turbo board never could boot from 2.5" hdd or cf-card.
This also is the only Kick 3.1 image albe to work on 68000 cpu.
In general the internal scsi.device show big difference in various Kickstart version. So the A4000-T do have 2... a scsi.device for the IDE port and a ncrscsi.device for the real NCR SCSI controler.
| |
André Jernung
Sweden
| | (MX-Board Owner)
Posts 988
28 Sep 2010 15:33
| Thomas Richter wrote:
|
Hardly. There aren't any "workarounds for hardware" in 3.9, but an updated workbench, an updated shell, an updated FFS and so on. Where the copyright is depends on the individual authors, but in my case, the copyright fell back to me after two years, so I can certainly contribute the new shell, the ziptools, the new console, benchtrash and the math libraries. The same goes for Olsen's workbench, you might want to contact him whether he's willing to contribute, i.e. he and not Amiga or CBM holds the copyright.
|
I am sorry if you took it as a generalisation. I realise that my phrasing was bad here. You would be one of the best persons to tell me if I am wrong, but:
My impression was that the later versions of OS3 mainly improved a) PPC coprocessor support as well as b) RTG support. These are to my knowledge both irrelevant for Natami (having no PPC and having native chunky modes).
But of course there are many other improvements in 3.5/3.9 that could be relevant when creating an AmigaOS3 distro.
We would be very grateful for any software contribution of yours to such a distribution. Contacting Olsen might be a good idea!
Do you agree that 3.1 would be suitable as a common starting point for such a distribution? Or would you rather see that 3.9 is improved? Unfortunately, we do not currently have any copies of 3.9 to distribute with the boards, to my knowledge.
Thomas Richter wrote:
|
Hopefully not. I believe that there is good software out you may want to use.
|
Yes, there are a lot of useful patches, but we have to be very selective with what to include. The new graphics.library in the new boingbags, for example, eliminates the use of the blitter and uses CPU drawing entirely. This makes sense on an expanded classic, where f.e. a 68060 card is a lot faster at drawing than the blitter. But this is not true for Natami, which has a blitter that
is magnitudes faster than the one in the original Amiga chipset - and so using this patch would mean crippling Natamis performance.
This is one of the software patches that are made obsolete by improved hardware which I was talking about.
Thomas Richter wrote:
|
Agreed, though you should note that kickstart != kickstart, and you need to specify which kickstart the users require. For example, the A2000 kickstart doesn't have a scsi.device, the A3000 kickstart has a scsi.device that talks scsi, and the A4000 kickstart has a "fake" scsi.device that actually talks IDE/PATA. If, for example, you need the scsi.device in ROM, then an A2000 kickstart won't work.
|
Yes, this is of course important. We need to standardise on a specific 3.1 version, for starters. But AFAIK Amiga Forever provides a wide selection of ROM:s to choose from. Ideally, the user would want to get hold of a 1.2 or 1.3 kickstart ROM image too, for use with WHDLoad.
Thomas Richter wrote:
|
The - for me - ideal solution would be if the kickstart wouldn't be much more than a bootstrap loader with almost all modules loaded from disk, i.e. RAM based. You can replace ROM modules by RAM modules, actually almost all of them, except for expansion and exec. The only thing required in ROM would be a preliminary exec version, a preliminary expansion version (both small enough to be re-written), a preliminary driver for the HD (maybe PIO only) and a bootstrap loader that loads segments from the RDB, plus a tool to prep the harddisk with the necessary segments.
|
You are making good points, but I do not think removing everything except exec and expansion from ROM would be a very good idea. One of the reasons for Natamis existance is that the users want compatibility, and this would break compatibility for floppy based software without the libraries on disk, wouldn't it?
Thanks for your viewpoints, and I hope you are enjoying Hongkong. You sure do travel a lot :)
| |
Thomas Richter
Germany
| | (MX-Board Owner)
Posts 1425
29 Sep 2010 02:15
| André Jernung wrote:
|
My impression was that the later versions of OS3 mainly improved a) PPC coprocessor support as well as b) RTG support. These are to my knowledge both irrelevant for Natami (having no PPC and having native chunky modes).
|
I afraid you remember wrong. 3.9 did nothing in either direction a) nor b). a) is the matter of the hardware-vendor specific additions, and b) is the matter of the graphics-card specific support software, i.e. either the P96 libs or the cybergfx libs. Neither was included in 3.9.André Jernung wrote:
|
Do you agree that 3.1 would be suitable as a common starting point for such a distribution?
|
No, I disagree, I afraid. 3.9 would be a good start. There is no need to do all the fixes in 3.9 again. You do not need to distribute 3.9 with the boards, but you should try to collect the necessary patches from the corresponding authors, which should be possible. As said, ask Olsen, Heinz (for the FFS and SetPatch) and me. There are more system components you might want to look into, but the three of us cover a pretty good part of 3.9.André Jernung wrote:
|
The new graphics.library in the new boingbags, for example, eliminates the use of the blitter and uses CPU drawing entirely.
|
Sorry, but what are you talking about???? There is no new graphics.library in any of the official boingbags I'm aware of. There are lots of patches in P96 or CGfx, but not in 3.9.André Jernung wrote:
|
You are making good points, but I do not think removing everything except exec and expansion from ROM would be a very good idea. One of the reasons for Natamis existance is that the users want compatibility, and this would break compatibility for floppy based software without the libraries on disk, wouldn't it?
|
Floppy??? Is that what the ancient greeks used? Sorry, but this is the 21st century. Floppies are no longer built into PCs, there are hard to obtain, unusable small, unusably unreliable. Provide the Natami with a nice floppy emulation that bootstraps the system from HD first, then loads games from a RAM floppy emulation.So long,
Thomas
| |
André Jernung
Sweden
| | (MX-Board Owner)
Posts 988
29 Sep 2010 04:39
| Thomas Richter wrote:
|
I afraid you remember wrong. 3.9 did nothing in either direction a) nor b). a) is the matter of the hardware-vendor specific additions, and b) is the matter of the graphics-card specific support software, i.e. either the P96 libs or the cybergfx libs. Neither was included in 3.9.
|
Oh, I'm sorry. I clearly have the impression of 3.5/3.9 providing new PPC datatypes, WarpOS updates, GUI and icons suited for RTG resolution, etc. But maybe you consider those of less importance.
Thomas Richter wrote:
|
No, I disagree, I afraid. 3.9 would be a good start. There is no need to do all the fixes in 3.9 again. You do not need to distribute 3.9 with the boards, but you should try to collect the necessary patches from the corresponding authors, which should be possible. As said, ask Olsen, Heinz (for the FFS and SetPatch) and me. There are more system components you might want to look into, but the three of us cover a pretty good part of 3.9.
|
This indeed sounds like a good strategy. Creating such a distro would be very beneficial for the Natami users. I hope that there would be no legal ambiguity doing that, as long as you guys give your permission.
Thomas Richter wrote:
|
Sorry, but what are you talking about???? There is no new graphics.library in any of the official boingbags I'm aware of. There are lots of patches in P96 or CGfx, but not in 3.9.
|
I was clearly referring to "the new, unofficial boingbags" and "the new boingbags", in my posts, meaning those known as BB3 and BB4, as opposed to the old boingbags from H&P. A lot of people are using those. I know that you guys are not responsible for them :) graphics.library v42.8 by Cosmos has the described functionality.
Thomas Richter wrote:
|
Floppy??? Is that what the ancient greeks used? Sorry, but this is the 21st century. Floppies are no longer built into PCs, there are hard to obtain, unusable small, unusably unreliable. Provide the Natami with a nice floppy emulation that bootstraps the system from HD first, then loads games from a RAM floppy emulation.
|
And we are trying to build a computer that works exactly like one from 1985 with a few enhanchements. We could scrap a lot of stuff, killing compatibility in a lot of areas. But the Natami users want compatibility, since this is the most important goal of the project.
I bet that there are a lot of other stuff that would be convenient to just remove and emulate. But that isn't in our mission goals. It's supposed to be able to replace a classic Amiga, and that includes being able to boot your old floppy software or being able to hack old sampler disk formats at will.
I won't be able to answer anything until Sunday. Take care :)
| |
SID Hervé
France
| |
Posts 663
29 Sep 2010 09:12
| Hello André and Thomas Wherever possible, and assuming I understand correctly what has been discussed, would not it be more healthy, initially, to deliver a kickstart cleaned of all errors before thinking about expanding it (obviously the NatAmi support is not included in extensions), I mean starting on a sound basis ?
Thanks
| |
Thomas Richter
Germany
| | (MX-Board Owner)
Posts 1425
01 Oct 2010 23:57
| SID Hervé wrote:
|
Hello André and Thomas
Wherever possible, and assuming I understand correctly what has been discussed, would not it be more healthy, initially, to deliver a kickstart cleaned of all errors before thinking about expanding it (obviously the NatAmi support is not included in extensions), I mean starting on a sound basis ?
Thanks
|
That is the job of SetPatch. You cannot fix the kickstart in ROM without really having the sources available, i.e. in a legally valid version. So long,
Thomas
| |
SID Hervé
France
| |
Posts 663
02 Oct 2010 21:45
|
You cannot fix the kickstart in ROM without really having the sources available, i.e. in a legally valid version.
|
obviously, said like this... Thanks
| |
|
|
|
|
