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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
19 Jul 2010 19:42
| How difficult would be to integrate TCP/IP stack and remote filesystem client in kickstart? Lot of people do have a fileserver at home, most businesses have it in office. Having any harddrive on natami in many cases doesn't make sense. Amiga software are small and efficient, and hard disks are noisy and takes power. Flash is alternative but netboot is simplest in many cases. I don't mean Natami-1 as it doesn't even have network integrated, but for Natami-II is a must IMHO. Unix can netboot, but it's usually not a solution as it's I/O intensive. better to have strong central unix servers and simple terminals (possibly netbooted). Windows - .... lets skip that with silence...
MacOS - quite similar older systems like DOS - no problem. Netbooting is important IMHO.
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Sascha B
Germany
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Posts 131
19 Jul 2010 19:48
| Technically possible by using a kickstart extension file located at $E00000 at boot time.
The TCP/IP stack and a "netboot.device" in combination with an AutoConfig "hardware" NIC and fixed server IP, MAC address or host name stored somewhere (while creating the rom extension file).
Also the file server must offer either a hardfile or shared folder containing AmigaOS files. This depent on the internal handling of netboot.device and internal client of say SaMBa, ftp or even NFS support.
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
19 Jul 2010 19:53
| @Sascha
So it is possible, and - in case that someone after some time will rewrite kickstart from scratch (which have to happen finally) - even easy.
as for " fixed server IP, MAC address or host name stored somewhere" there is no need to. DHCP support provides all that and more.
I don't mean quick hack which is certainly possible :) but proper boot menu showing network.device that - when selected - will do right DHCP and mount sequence.
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Sascha B
Germany
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Posts 131
19 Jul 2010 20:07
| Wojtek P wrote:
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as for " fixed server IP, MAC address or host name stored somewhere" there is no need to. DHCP support provides all that and more.
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Yep right, I also was thinking about that but was not sure for the moment.
Just played arround with a Linux terminal server back in time.
Wojtek P wrote:
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I don't mean quick hack which is certainly possible :) but proper boot menu showing network.device that - when selected - will do right DHCP and mount sequence.
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The proper way will require development and for sure time.
Maybe the AutoConfig and client / device handling already can offer an early-startup entrie, with necessary adaption for sure. Then Kickstart should handle this shared resources like a common hard drives as on say scsi.device.
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
19 Jul 2010 20:26
| Sascha B wrote:
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The proper way will require development and for sure time.
Maybe the AutoConfig and client / device handling already can offer an early-startup entrie, with necessary adaption for sure. Then Kickstart should handle this shared resources like a common hard drives as on say scsi.device.
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At the moment that natami user base will exceed some like 10000 - there will be money for develop kickstart and OS from the beginning. As for 21 century standards but (i wish) NOT by 21 century standard of programming quality.So this will happen.
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Richard Maudsley
United Kingdom
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Posts 821
19 Jul 2010 22:32
| I don't see any point in this. Netbooting requires another machine to be running at the same time, so you have to factor in a boot time of your, let's say linux pc. And since you mention having no hard disk, you cannot turn the pc off after boot, so you have 400w or so "leaking", not being useful. Plus not many people run home servers (I know exactly one, for a family of five). And it's slower than real media, etc.
I can see this being expensive, for running a second computer to use the natami, and in terms of development time. I think it's much more practical, faster, and cheaper to run, for you to fit a CF card for your hard disk instead.Remember where netboot is used - large suites of computers, like in a school or college. There, the benefits outweigh the cost. The same can't be said of at home.
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
20 Jul 2010 12:08
| since you mention having no hard disk, you cannot turn the pc off after boot, so you have 400w or so "leaking", not being useful. Plus not many people run home servers (I know exactly one, for a family of five). And it's slower than real media, etc.
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Very limited point of view - limited to how YOU use the computer. What wasn't my point. Future discussion with you doesn't make sense - as you simply don't read whole sentences.
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Richard Maudsley
United Kingdom
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Posts 821
20 Jul 2010 12:11
| Why is this practical for you then? I've got some difficulty seeing what use netbooting has for the home user. It just sounds worse in every way than just using a CF card. Oh, and I do read whole sentences. It's just that these are random sentences, each having their own paragraph. It's like I'm reading a rollercoaster.
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Gunnar von Boehn
Germany
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Posts 5775
20 Jul 2010 12:59
| Sascha is right,
Extension the Kickstart is easy as it was designed to be extended.But you can also recompile the Kickstart and simply add or replace part in the 512KB file without extending it. This is also fairly simple.
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Deep Sub Micron
Germany
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Posts 567
20 Jul 2010 13:26
| Netbooting is not only a Natami specific thing. Such a Kickstart extension/modification should be possible with classic Hardware as well as with UAE.
But I bet there is no one that requires Netbooting so much that he will sit down and start writing it.
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Richard Maudsley
United Kingdom
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Posts 821
20 Jul 2010 13:30
| deep sub micron wrote:
| | But I bet there is no one that requires Netbooting so much that he will sit down and start writing it. |
Exactly my point. Maybe in the old days, when there were rooms full of amigas. But not now.
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Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands
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Posts 3976
20 Jul 2010 13:54
| Wojtek i suppose you could start coding since the team seems to don't care much for a natami cluster.
Let alone a beowulf souper computer!
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
20 Jul 2010 23:53
| Richard Maudsley wrote:
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deep sub micron wrote:
| | But I bet there is no one that requires Netbooting so much that he will sit down and start writing it. |
Exactly my point. Maybe in the old days, when there were rooms full of amigas. But not now.
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And in the future.
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
20 Jul 2010 23:54
| You completely miss my point.
I don't mean cluster but office environment with say - 20 computers+single server.
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Richard Maudsley
United Kingdom
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Posts 821
21 Jul 2010 01:55
| Who on earth wants an office full of natamis?
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Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands
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Posts 3976
21 Jul 2010 03:50
| I wouldn't mind, having that!
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
21 Jul 2010 09:58
| Who WILL - is the proper question.
Not you, but you are not the only one.
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Richard Maudsley
United Kingdom
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Posts 821
21 Jul 2010 10:06
| So Wojtek can we get your order of 20+ machines down officially? :-) Marcel's joke aside, I don't think there is much interest. It's rare enough for an office to switch platform to mac or linux, and a hobby computer with only mid 90s productivity software is kind of a tough sell, don't you think. Who WILL do this?
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Wojtek P
Poland
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Posts 1597
21 Jul 2010 12:13
| No - i don't have 20 people office with requirements for Natami. But for sure others will have in future. Unless you will work hard to keep Natami as hobby computer and nothing more. For good hardware there will be good software. WILL BE. How do you like for software to happen while there is not even developer board available? I don't have few million dollars handy, but if i would have i WOULD invest it all on Natami project to make LOTS of software written by professional programmers. I mean PROFESSIONAL not "professional" in 21-century point of view (clicks faster than non professional). Beginning from complete kickstart rewrite from scratch and AmigaOS Don't believe me. So if you find out i do have more than one million dollar and still not invested in Natami project - get this post to the court ;) Or do you like that sentence written and signed?
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Richard Maudsley
United Kingdom
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Posts 821
21 Jul 2010 12:51
| Hmm, maybe, in 20 years. Linux is a similar nerd project, and thats gotten to the point of being viable for an office enviroment, and non tech users. But the next challenge is convincing people to use it, and Linux is 100% cheaper.
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