| A Few Comments Questions Thoughts .. | page 1 2
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John Just John
Australia
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Posts 6
12 Mar 2010 13:54
| been reading off an on about the project natami ..
had a few thoughts ..but wanted to say id love to see a updated
amiga1200 type machine ..always had amigas since a500 ..my 1200 m/board now dead ..still got a 040 an bits around to rebuild it again if i find a machine but it got me to thinking about what everyone was really biddin for on ebay (amiga way) an what your machine must have to succeed..im not a electronics type guy just a consumer ..who loves the amiga still ..
the new amiga must be able to connect to the web easily ..a web browser with good speed is essential ..as is a media player,email client an a updated dopus..aga is essential ..why not a mention of the aaa chipset ..i saw finished motherboards on the web ..one even on ebay not working but ..the machine must run on a standard monitor ..not a tv ..no flickerfixers or the like ..i do agree to have a libary of games as the amiga has makes a 6800 series chip appealing an i thought could a 060 be used as a dual type chip setup ? i havent seen much in the ppc line ..had a ppc machine runnin for a while ..but with little software it was a lot money for very little ..os4 looks nice ..but cant run it on hardware that basically doesnt exist now..i want your machine to do well ..an hope it will eventually become a real thing ..but computers have moved along ..you have a difficult task let people run old software
an games for fun ..an hopefully show some people what a amiga can still do ..i still get tingles when i watch a cd32 add ..id like to get that excitment again ..good luck ..
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Channel Z
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Posts 213
12 Mar 2010 14:21
| Hello John. A lot of the questions and suggestions you have are already thought of and described and answered if you only look around on this site.
john just john wrote:
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wanted to say id love to see a updated
amiga1200 type machine |
We are discussing the possibility of creating a A1200 type chassi for the Natami in several threads on this forum. It would probably be pretty expensive for the end user though.
john just john wrote:
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the new amiga must be able to connect to the web easily
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It can, with a ethernet card and a TCP/IP stack.
john just john wrote:
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..a web browser with good speed is essential
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Definitely. OWB has a port for 68k, but it haven't been improved lately. This is one of the most important software questions for a fast 68k platform like the Natami.
john just john wrote:
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..as is a media player,email client an a updated dopus..
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Mplayer is available for 68k, as is YAM and the latest DOpus.
john just john wrote:
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aga is essential ..why not a mention of the aaa chipset ..i saw finished motherboards on the web ..one even on ebay not working but
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SuperAGA is way way more advanced than AAA, which never got finished, and has no software support and is thus unnecessary to implement support for. AGA support has already been in the Natami for years.
john just john wrote:
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..the machine must run on a standard monitor ..not a tv ..no flickerfixers or the like
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Natami outputs both a standard monitor signal and a classic 15khz signal, so you can use whatever equipment you like.
john just john wrote:
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..i do agree to have a libary of games as the amiga has makes a 6800 series chip appealing an i thought could a 060 be used as a dual type chip setup ?
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Several games are already in the making for Natami.
You can run either a physical 68060 CPU (see hardware section) or the Natami softcore (implemented in the FPGA and having the project name 050 and later 070). Both are fully Amiga compatible 68k CPUs. There is no need for dual CPUs.
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Chuck T
USA
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Posts 240
13 Mar 2010 00:30
| Channel Z wrote:
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We are discussing the possibility of creating a A1200 type chassi for the Natami in several threads on this forum. It would probably be pretty expensive for the end user though.
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That is quite an interesting concept. 1) It would create a run on A1200 units.
2) It may be simpler to use the A1200 as a host instead of getting rights to the Amiga operating system.
3) It would add to the retro feel.
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Richard GATINEAU
France
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Posts 78
13 Mar 2010 08:36
| Channel Z wrote:
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We are discussing the possibility of creating a A1200 type chassi for the Natami in several threads on this forum. It would probably be pretty expensive for the end user though. |
Why not using the existing A1200 case with an extra board for back connectors and a custom frame/chassis to screw all ?
Please, what are the Natami boards sizes to make a moke up ?
Thanks.
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Channel Z
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Posts 213
13 Mar 2010 12:11
| Chuck T wrote:
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2) It may be simpler to use the A1200 as a host instead of getting rights to the Amiga operating system.
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Why would this be needed? First and formost the user may own an AmigaOS license from before. Secondly, Natami team have a lot of 3.1 licenses to sell with the Natami. Thirdly, if they run out the user only has to buy AmigaForever cheaply from Cloanto, including the OS and the kickstart.
The Natami team does not need "rights" to modify the AmigaOS. This can be done as kickstart extensions. Moreover, the AROS folks are working on a open source kickstart together with their 68k port of AROS, which if finished would be a fully backwards compatible upgrade of OS 3.1.
The only reason for talking about rights would be to build goodwill and business relations.
Richard GATINEAU wrote:
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Why not using the existing A1200 case with an extra board for back connectors and a custom frame/chassis to screw all ?
Please, what are the Natami boards sizes to make a moke up ?
Thanks.
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I'm not sure if i understand your idea completely. Could you perhaps describe in more detail? When I read that I imagined some kind of Frankenstein's monster-looking desktop A1200.
The size of the consumer version, which is the only Natami board that might be considered for putting into such a chassi, is not decided yet. In fact, such a version is only a wish on the Natami roadmap for now.
The developer board, however, will probably be some standard PC size, and thus not fit for a A1200-style chassi.
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Chuck T
USA
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Posts 240
13 Mar 2010 12:42
| Channel Z wrote:
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Chuck T wrote:
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2) It may be simpler to use the A1200 as a host instead of getting rights to the Amiga operating system.
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Why would this be needed? First and formost the user may own an AmigaOS license from before. Secondly, Natami team have a lot of 3.1 licenses to sell with the Natami. Thirdly, if they run out the user only has to buy AmigaForever cheaply from Cloanto, including the OS and the kickstart.
The Natami team does not need "rights" to modify the AmigaOS. This can be done as kickstart extensions. Moreover, the AROS folks are working on a open source kickstart together with their 68k port of AROS, which if finished would be a fully backwards compatible upgrade of OS 3.1.
The only reason for talking about rights would be to build goodwill and business relations.
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Then why is the team wanting the files to the Commodore Bankruptcy case in the Bahamas to know who owns the operating sytem? Readysoft made the Amax II which was a Macintosh clone and it plugged into the serial port of the Amiga. They got around being sued by letting the user buy legal hardware roms which plugged into the board from the scrapyard and the user had to supply a legal copy of the operating system. They were never sued to my knowledge.
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Channel Z
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Posts 213
13 Mar 2010 12:54
| Chuck T wrote:
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Then why is the team wanting the files to the Commodore Bankruptcy case in the Bahamas to know who owns the operating sytem?
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Because most people in the Amiga community want to know who owns it. If Amiga Inc. never owned the rights, Hyperion can't own the rights today.
Chuck T wrote:
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Readysoft made the Amax II which was a Macintosh clone and it plugged into the serial port of the Amiga. They got around being sued by letting the user buy legal hardware roms which plugged into the board from the scrapyard and the user had to supply a legal copy of the operating system. They were never sued to my knowledge.
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Yes, but how is this different from running a ROM file from Cloanto or an AROS reverse-engineered ROM file without getting sued?
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Richard GATINEAU
France
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Posts 78
13 Mar 2010 15:31
| Channel Z wrote:
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I'm not sure if i understand your idea completely. Could you perhaps describe in more detail? When I read that I imagined some kind of Frankenstein's monster-looking desktop A1200. |
Like that : EXTERNAL LINK I hope you understand ?
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Channel Z
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Posts 213
13 Mar 2010 15:57
| Yes, this is a nice idea. The idea with port headers on the board making the design adaptible to several sorts of chassi designs, including a original Amiga case would be great for the consumer board.
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Channel Z
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Posts 213
13 Mar 2010 15:57
| (double post)
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Richard GATINEAU
France
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Posts 78
13 Mar 2010 16:39
| It's true if we can use original Keyboard. :)
For the port headers, we can remap it for new features.
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Thomas Hirsch
Germany
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Posts 233
13 Mar 2010 17:12
| An interesting concept, really! Disadvantage is that the original keyboard controller is on the A1200 mainboard - not on the keyboard itself.
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Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands
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Posts 2089
13 Mar 2010 17:15
| Please, open your eyes people and face reality.
From a economical perspective making more then one PCB layout for the same machine is stupidity.
Unless there is a serious flaw or there is room for some improvement, all models should use the same PCB layout design.
I have nothing against making a two scale design.(see A500 & A2000 or A1200 & A4000)
But still to make a range of models one for fitting a A1200 one for a A500, or A600.
That is foolishness, for your asking for something that has been out of production for over a decade.
This would scare of people coming back or potential newcomers.
This is something we should avoid, and that is a reason why using a industrial standard is clever.
This opens up a whole array of designs you would like to put the Natami board in.
It doesn't even close off the door to case modding.
Demanding that it can fit 1:1 with 15 year old parts is stupid.
Requesting the required interfaces is not.
I like that we have Headers with some of the clasic interfaces.
These can be left off as a cost reduction but then we would be pushing pennies.(literally this are cents we are talking about.)
I am content with the current available I/O on the board.
But then again i am a Hardware person.
(edit)
Thomas Hirsch made even a better point then i could
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Richard GATINEAU
France
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Posts 78
13 Mar 2010 17:26
| Thomas Hirsch wrote:
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An interesting concept, really!
Disadvantage is that the original keyboard controller is on the A1200 mainboard - not on the keyboard itself. |
Can we add this controller on the port headers or inside the fpga ?Some ports ideas : EXTERNAL LINK
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Thomas Hirsch
Germany
| | (Natami Team Member)
Posts 233
13 Mar 2010 18:05
| @ Marcel
I am thinking about how the next board should look like.There are two (contrary) demands: 1/ including almost all (legacy) slow I/O ports for completeness and compatibility. (see the cyan Shifted I/O in here http://www.natami.net/download/documentation/NatAmi_LX.pdf) 2/ make the board as small as possible. I want to have a small board because I want to attach 32bit DDR2 ram. For that two chips are needed per bank. This will surely extend the current 4-layer design to a 6-layer design. This is not a technical challenge but financial one. The current board size in 6 layers might go up to 180-200 Euro per board in low quantities (please tell me if you have a good manufacturer which is able to do it for less) This is why I think this concept may be interesting: With the current design I proved that it is possible having all the slow legacy stuff managed by a CPLD connected by 5-8 data lines to the main FPGA. So the NatAmi design could consist of two boards. One containing the main computer as a quite small 6-layer PCB and one 2-layer interface PCB with its own inexpensive CPLD/FPGA.
And this second board might come in two or more flavors. Or not us but some 3rd-party wants to do this PCB for A1200 users.
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Gunnar von Boehn
Germany
| | (Natami Team Member)
Posts 3727
13 Mar 2010 18:32
| So you are saying the main NATAMI will be slightly bigger than a big pack of cigaretes but have 512MB of fast memory, DVI out, and Sound, USB, maybe LAN .. And all extra connectors Floppy, Serial, All IOS you want would be on an extension board for those that need it. This would make the NATAMI very small. I understood this that both boards together could be less expensive than having one big ass 6 Layer board. Also those that are happy without the extensions wont need the extension board and will get the NATAMI even cheaper, right?
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Bartek K
United Kingdom
| | (Natami Team Member)
Posts 1330
13 Mar 2010 19:13
| I really like that second concept! Can you imagine such a small NatAmi? Amazing piece of modern Amiga-compatible technology! I believe we should give users a choice and do not force them to use old, slow I/O ports if they do not need them. Dividing a board into two pieces sounds as the most logical choice. Cheers
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Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands
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Posts 2089
13 Mar 2010 21:20
| Thomas those prices sound about right for prototyping boards.
And are you sure you need 6 layers?
I think we could push that down to 5 maybe, for instance what is the space you keep between the datalines?What functions shall be on what board?
The manner of connecting to each other.
I as a tester of electronics am interested in the signal ofcourse.
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Richard Maudsley
United Kingdom
| | (Natami Team Member)
Posts 397
14 Mar 2010 01:52
| A two piece board would be a great "upgrade" for the 1200. If I remember right there's an adapter that lets you use an a1200 keyboard as a PS/2 one... If the floppy drive could be hooked up we'd be in buisness. Or rather, amigakit or somewhere like that would. Ether way, that would shift more units, and bring the cost down for the next run... Bingo.
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Marcel Verdaasdonk
Netherlands
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Posts 2089
14 Mar 2010 06:52
| Richard i must employ then to look at a A500 too since it was a top selling model.
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Do you have questions about the Natami?