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Chris Dennett United Kingdom
| | Posts 135 22 Jul 2012 17:40
| The 68k processor code should be released so that the community can improve it, even if the Natami source code remains closed. But that's just my opinion.
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Matt Hey USA
| | Posts 737 22 Jul 2012 18:06
| ceti 331 wrote:
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Matt Hey wrote:
| A burned advanced 68k ASIC at 400-700 MHz would likely outperform any ColdFire processor. It would outperform ARM and PPC processors at similar speeds while having a smaller memory footprint. The $50k-$100k to burn an ASIC isn't that much. Not all Amiga users are poor and community fund raising has been successful on other hobby projects. |
a 700mhz 68k... yum.. are there 68k enthusiasts outside of the amiga community that could provide demand for that.
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I think so and I'm not just talking about Atari or other retro machines. I think a modernized 68060 (with bigger caches, 68kF, etc.) could compete favorably with modern ARM and be useful for embedded applications. I think it could have better performance/MHz (single core), offer 15-25% better code density and be easier to program while not being at much of a power consumption deficit. It might be good to add system on a chip (SoC) capabilities like ARM and ColdFire to be more appealing and would require some marketing ("The best code density in the industry" isn't bad ;). There are other parts of the puzzle that would have to come together like good developers, good managers and enough money to produce sufficient quantity and die size to be competitive. I'd be willing to invest more (I already invest my time) if I saw the right environment and people. I think there is enough talent here but not enough communication and management. The "team" seems to have been taken out of the Natami Team.
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3991 22 Jul 2012 20:23
| Chris Dennett wrote:
| The 68k processor code should be released so that the community can improve it, even if the Natami source code remains closed. But that's just my opinion.
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Chris If you take a look at the bus you can see it is a very specific implementation on the N68050 this is not a design flaw but it would make it challenging to make it bus compatible to any other 68K system. Besides Nothing stops us from defining a ISA and implementing it. If at a later point in time Deep sub releases the source of N68050 it could be taken in, but the other way around would work too.
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Adrian Browne Ireland
| | Posts 173 23 Jul 2012 03:36
| Matt Hey wrote:
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ceti 331 wrote:
| Matt Hey wrote:
| A burned advanced 68k ASIC at 400-700 MHz would likely outperform any ColdFire processor. It would outperform ARM and PPC processors at similar speeds while having a smaller memory footprint. The $50k-$100k to burn an ASIC isn't that much. Not all Amiga users are poor and community fund raising has been successful on other hobby projects. |
a 700mhz 68k... yum.. are there 68k enthusiasts outside of the amiga community that could provide demand for that. |
I think so and I'm not just talking about Atari or other retro machines. I think a modernized 68060 (with bigger caches, 68kF, etc.) could compete favorably with modern ARM and be useful for embedded applications. I think it could have better performance/MHz (single core), offer 15-25% better code density and be easier to program while not being at much of a power consumption deficit. It might be good to add system on a chip (SoC) capabilities like ARM and ColdFire to be more appealing and would require some marketing ("The best code density in the industry" isn't bad ;). There are other parts of the puzzle that would have to come together like good developers, good managers and enough money to produce sufficient quantity and die size to be competitive. I'd be willing to invest more (I already invest my time) if I saw the right environment and people. I think there is enough talent here but not enough communication and management. The "team" seems to have been taken out of the Natami Team.
| Well said matt hey.well said indeed.
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Lorenzo Lorenko Italy
| | Posts 64 23 Jul 2012 07:35
| adrian browne wrote:
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Matt Hey wrote:
| I think so and I'm not just talking about Atari or other retro machines. I think a modernized 68060 (with bigger caches, 68kF, etc.) could compete favorably with modern ARM and be useful for embedded applications. I think it could have better performance/MHz (single core), offer 15-25% better code density and be easier to program while not being at much of a power consumption deficit. It might be good to add system on a chip (SoC) capabilities like ARM and ColdFire to be more appealing and would require some marketing ("The best code density in the industry" isn't bad ;). | Well said matt hey.well said indeed. |
++1 It would be great, but even Freescale does not believe in the wonderfull 68060. Believe me, every time I switch off my AMIGA I think of how great is this computer and already foretaste next time I'll switch on it
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Jacek Rafal Tatko Espania
| | Posts 607 23 Jul 2012 17:19
| None of us understands or underwrites why so many others do not believe in this architecture & platform . I think that there is not much , even nothing to understand . They , whoever they are , just do not think that the arguments add enough up … I say , it is a lack of experiencing an intuitive vision , and a diminished capacity to imagine & believe . Well , somehow , strange as it sounds , that is good & perfect the way it is . I agree with Matt Hey on what he says about the possible uses & advantages , there is space for all that and more , and I agree even more on the fact that there is not enough communication & good management of all the resources at hand . Also , strange as it sounds , that is just good & fine . It is better to be aware of the shortcomings in the beginning of a greater endeavour … . Such problems are very common in all kind of walks and it is one of the most difficult insights to gain alongside with the luck & art of finding that generalist that has the integrative skills to listen enough and to guide giving enough trust , hope and inspiration . Truly few creative angel & tyrants know how to keep a great balance between the two extremes that push & pull a project forwards , into greater success . I am a firm believer that all that is conceived within a good sense & taste can be achieved if only enough artful spirits & practical realists join their forces to make the very best out of each … Oo.JRT
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Lorenzo Lorenko Italy
| | Posts 64 24 Jul 2012 21:52
| Does anyone know if there is a mc68060 dev-board? !:OIt would be nice if freescale produced a really cheap one :)))))) for amigans purposes ;)
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Thierry Atheist Canada
| | Posts 1830 25 Jul 2012 00:54
| I know a few people I want to LAUGH AT..... They ALWAYS defend windows (7, etc.), because "you can buy really really really big hard drives and they're cheap" which I assume means it makes everything microblob do "okay". It churns my stomach. I can't do the action in the opening sentence until the NatAmi "exists".... PLEASE MAKE IT POSSIBLE!!!!!!
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Rob Roede Netherlands
| | Posts 23 25 Jul 2012 11:37
| André Jernung wrote:
| People said the same things because of "inactivity" right before Thomas finalised the MX motherboard. "The project is dead, you should resign", yada yada. And then everyone shut up when shown results and forgot about the total panic and despair from a few days before. I am sorry if things do not happen at the pace you wish for, but Thomas will work at the pace he feels like, when he feels like it. There are already open sourced Amiga FPGA cores like Minimig AGA, why aren't you helping them out already? :) |
I hope Natami will not, but I've seen many projects like this die a silent death. The problem is that technicians (like myself) start such a project full enthusiasm, but when the project reaches about 75% of it's completion, we lose interrest and it gets harder and harder to get yourself to work on the project. (even harder when you have to do it in your freetime like Thomas) Resulting in not finishing the project at all (I can't count the amount of my projects in this state on two hands....) I think that's just the way we (technicians) are. If there's no commercial drive (some director demanding results), it's very hard to get it done. I just keep following the project, and see what happens.
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Olaf Schoenweiss Germany
| | Posts 786 25 Jul 2012 13:02
| there is at least one alternative for 68k fans. If and when the project of Thomas will be buyable is impossible to forecast. The motivation of Thomas is certainly not commercial but creating his own dream-amiga. Commercial motivation would have been better propably but it is certainly not the case.
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Thierry Atheist Canada
| | Posts 1830 27 Jul 2012 08:14
| Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:
| there is at least one alternative for 68k fans. If and when the project of Thomas will be buyable is impossible to forecast. The motivation of Thomas is certainly not commercial but creating his own dream-amiga. Commercial motivation would have been better propably but it is certainly not the case.
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And that's the way it should be.... I feel that he's doing it for me too. and many, MANY, MANY others as well.NatAmi, after the IMMENSELY PERSISTENT FAILURE of ALL other so called "want to be"... "computers" AND "operating systems" none can EVEN WIPE CLEAN the shoes of AMIGA OS and HW!!!!!!!!!!!! Am I "insane"?; no! quite the opposite!!! I can FLOOD this place with stories of miserable alternate "OS" failures!!!!!
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Thierry Atheist Canada
| | Posts 1830 27 Jul 2012 08:19
| 1 such story; I need an ALTERNATIVE to what windows "Xp" has to offer to change the size of my hard drives,.... EVEN THOUGH the misconstrued size necessity offered forth that windows xp needs as a boot drive, initially. PATHETIC WRETCHED FILTH is microsoft's public offerings.
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Richard Maudsley United Kingdom
| | Posts 821 02 Aug 2012 16:32
| Thierry nobody here wants to read your drivel. Go back to spamming moobunny.
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Megol .
| | Posts 690 04 Aug 2012 12:24
| Matt Hey wrote:
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ceti 331 wrote:
| Matt Hey wrote:
| A burned advanced 68k ASIC at 400-700 MHz would likely outperform any ColdFire processor. It would outperform ARM and PPC processors at similar speeds while having a smaller memory footprint. The $50k-$100k to burn an ASIC isn't that much. Not all Amiga users are poor and community fund raising has been successful on other hobby projects. |
a 700mhz 68k... yum.. are there 68k enthusiasts outside of the amiga community that could provide demand for that. |
I think so and I'm not just talking about Atari or other retro machines. I think a modernized 68060 (with bigger caches, 68kF, etc.) could compete favorably with modern ARM and be useful for embedded applications. I think it could have better performance/MHz (single core), offer 15-25% better code density and be easier to program while not being at much of a power consumption deficit. It might be good to add system on a chip (SoC) capabilities like ARM and ColdFire to be more appealing and would require some marketing ("The best code density in the industry" isn't bad ;). There are other parts of the puzzle that would have to come together like good developers, good managers and enough money to produce sufficient quantity and die size to be competitive. I'd be willing to invest more (I already invest my time) if I saw the right environment and people. I think there is enough talent here but not enough communication and management. The "team" seems to have been taken out of the Natami Team.
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Sorry but that's not possible. Better performance than a processor designed by a skilled processor team? As most performance enhancing things aren't directly architecture related that would be pretty much impossible. ARM designs specialized blocks optimized for certain processes while a 68k team would have to do with generic logic and simplified design of critical paths. Code density for embedded applications wouldn't be better than a modern ARM that have thumb-2 support. Even the 32 bit original instruction set is very compact in the hands of a skilled programmer/compiler as one 32 bit instruction can be conditionally executed and encode one shift + one ALU operation. That ARM instructions are 3 operand (or even 4 operand) helps too. Don't get me wrong here, I'd like to have a modernized 68k processor designed by an experienced CPU team but one have to be realistic. There are probably still a market for a 68k compatible for embedded systems and there could be enough for financing an ASIC development project but even then the result would have to be conservative.
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Matt Hey USA
| | Posts 737 04 Aug 2012 18:32
| Megol . wrote:
| Better performance than a processor designed by a skilled processor team? As most performance enhancing things aren't directly architecture related that would be pretty much impossible. ARM designs specialized blocks optimized for certain processes while a 68k team would have to do with generic logic and simplified design of critical paths. |
The ARM processor was designed by a small team of industry amateurs (encouraged by the amateur Berkeley RISC project) in the early '80s and first produced in the mid '80s. Besides inexperience "baggage", it's old enough to have inefficiency "baggage" and adding a CISC encoding to a pure RISC processor increases that baggage. You get some restrictions from RISC and some from CISC. Thumb 1 was a total kludge and Thumb 2 is better but less than optimum. They could have started over and made an efficient CISC encoded processor but didn't. The 68k started with efficiently encoded CISC and a RISC core (68060) proved to work beautifully. The 68k has some baggage also because of it's age (not that much older than ARM) but it was created by professionals that knew what they were doing before the RISC fad took off. Innovation isn't cumming from big corporations taking risks on innovative products. They are too busy making specialized enhancements to products where they benefit from existing oligopolies. Megol . wrote:
| Code density for embedded applications wouldn't be better than a modern ARM that have thumb-2 support. Even the 32 bit original instruction set is very compact in the hands of a skilled programmer/compiler as one 32 bit instruction can be conditionally executed and encode one shift + one ALU operation. That ARM instructions are 3 operand (or even 4 operand) helps too. |
I think 68020+ code has better code density than Thumb 2 already. I've seen some modern tests with new versions of GCC and code compiled for the 68000 that shows Thumb 2 as better (usually small advantage) but it's complete BS. You can't compare compiler support of the most common processors (ARM, x86) in the world to practically abandoned ones (68k). Cesare Di Mauro posted a code density test using an older version of GCC (still not optimal 68k compiler): EXTERNAL LINK It shows ARM with Thumb extensions in a virtual tie with the 68000 family in code density. The compile is done for size which means Thumb 1 could have been used (better code density than Thumb 2) verse code created for the 680000 family (no 68020+ support). The 68kF ISA would improve code density as well as enhancements like faster bit field instructions (has 4 ops and a shift by the way). I think an advanced 68k could do it without hurting ease of use or performance as much as ARM (ARM to Thumb 2 is 15%-25% speed penalty according to ARM). 68kF would add move+shift instructions and larger sized shifts much like ARM. We already have a better compression scheme than ARM for loading immediates (especially in fpga). I think that Scc(with code fusion)/SELcc/SBcc can hold their own against conditional instructions by allowing a simpler pipeline, more advanced addressing modes and better code density where conditional execution is not needed. Megol . wrote:
| Don't get me wrong here, I'd like to have a modernized 68k processor designed by an experienced CPU team but one have to be realistic. There are probably still a market for a 68k compatible for embedded systems and there could be enough for financing an ASIC development project but even then the result would have to be conservative. |
I understand the uphill battle with wads of cash from oligopolies. We can't out work a 1000 experienced engineers but we might just be able to out innovate them ;). We do need to get an advanced 68k in an fpga for testing. That would tell us a lot about the speed and code density.
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Zoltan Z Hungary
| | Posts 5 04 Aug 2012 22:51
| I am really sad to say so, but you live in a world of dreams. The 68k line was let to die for a reason. Motorola was unable to keep up with Intel, and they saw potential for growth elsewhere. Now, after more than 15 years, trying to improve an old technology to compete in a totally different race, sounds ridiculous to me. You can do so. Intel does it, to say the least. And they have difficulties.You can create a new, so called 68k processor, with all the advancement since that age, but If you really want to get something good out of it, it will result in something, that just barely resembles the old ones. The ARM architecture could be improved for sure, but why would you turn to something old, with all of its problems, instead just creating something new? Intel is trying to compete in the embedded segment, and at least a few people here would say that it is just rehashing old ideas. But when we speak of 68k, it is innovation. It all sounds to me like religious mantras. If I dream, I dream about an improved Amiga, with an improved 68k. I don't dream of a revolution, because that costs a hell-a-lot. In my opinion a new Amiga and 68k should be better than the ones in the past and affordable for all Amigans.
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Richard Maudsley United Kingdom
| | Posts 821 05 Aug 2012 00:27
| 68K died because Motorola had their head up their ass. They jumped on the RISC bandwagon with the 88k, then realized they didn't have to do nearly as much work if they just joined the PPC alliance with apple. It's simple politics, and idiot businessmen trying to progress in their career by messing with things they don't understand. Nothing to do with technology.
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Matt Hey USA
| | Posts 737 05 Aug 2012 04:31
| @Richard Maudsley Exactly. RISC was the fad and there was already lots of free RISC marketing hype. It's easier to sell people what they want than what they need. PPC was destined (and predicted) to take over the desktop and server computer markets putting Motorola on top with the big 3. What more would a white collar need to hear? Just need to kick to the curb that pesky little 68060 processor that keeps outperforming the PPC processors. "Step right up, we've got clock speed here, get your high clock speed here. Forget the snake oils of the past. No risk RISC is guaranteed the best processors for the future."
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3991 05 Aug 2012 10:19
| Richard Maudsley wrote:
| 68K died because Motorola had their head up their ass. They jumped on the RISC bandwagon with the 88k, then realized they didn't have to do nearly as much work if they just joined the PPC alliance with apple. It's simple politics, and idiot businessmen trying to progress in their career by messing with things they don't understand. Nothing to do with technology.
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To be honest if Moto did continue it's 68K line we would have been in the same predicament as the x86 ISA from Intel. IMHO it is good the 68K died out because a dead language doesn't change. This is neat because now we can enhance it under the hood without requiring to add special instructions and other shenanigans which are not required to make operations possible.
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Megol .
| | Posts 690 05 Aug 2012 21:43
| Richard Maudsley wrote:
| 68K died because Motorola had their head up their ass. They jumped on the RISC bandwagon with the 88k, then realized they didn't have to do nearly as much work if they just joined the PPC alliance with apple. It's simple politics, and idiot businessmen trying to progress in their career by messing with things they don't understand. Nothing to do with technology.
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Motorola didn't think they would have enough market to improve the 68k line. They were most likely 100% correct in that aspect. In comparison the PPC standard had the backing of IBM and others so as it were that choice was the better one. Remember even Microsoft supported PPC at the time and the RISC seemed too be the future. That x86 had enough market (=money) to survive the critical phase when ISA still had any impact on performance was something most people didn't account for at the time...
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