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Louis Dias USA
| | Posts 217 19 Oct 2010 16:24
| A bluetooth stack could also give us fun things like the uDraw + Wii Remote: EXTERNAL LINK
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Matthew G. Hauge Sweden
| | Posts 60 20 Oct 2010 11:14
| Louis Dias wrote:
| A bluetooth stack could also give us fun things like the uDraw + Wii Remote: EXTERNAL LINK |
I believe that Sounds more like something we can get using a USB Bluetooth dongle, but we will need software drivers and that is a SW issue, not something we should be asking the Natami team to add to the hardware. It would however be fun to build a Natami main board into my car, and hook it up using blue tooth to my GPS. It would also be fun to build it into a water tight case and use it together with a sonar, and a GPS to use as a mapping tool while out fishing, or even as a fish finder. EXTERNAL LINK The reason I mentioned A driver for touch screens was that Scala MM was in fact designed with the intention of being used together with such devices. I don't know if any software drivers for touch screen ever was made. In those days touch screens cost about ten times what they do today, and very few took the Amiga seriously for being anything else than a games machine. Too bad since there where a lot of people using the AMIGA commercially. I believe that the Natami can be the next AMIGA if promoted correctly, and enough software developers pitch in on making software and drivers for 3'rd party hardware.
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Ingmar H Germany
| | Posts 46 20 Oct 2010 19:23
| Thomas Richter wrote:
| However, the problems that need to be solved right now are of a different kind - how to manufacture the boards? How to ship them? How to collect money for them? Does it require a company to be established? How about copyright? How to finance the first batch of boards?
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Hello Thomas, pls forgive me my stupid question but I am curious: How does that work? You first need a company which produces the board? How many are the minimum size? 1,000? 10,000? How much would the production cost then? Eur 100,000 or even more like Eur 500,000? Sorry, I really have no clue how that works, but I am very sure many others would like to know, too. Thx in advance! Greetings Ingmar
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3976 20 Oct 2010 19:34
| 1 up to a dozen or so can be produced as prototype. It's when it is on the production line you like to see numbers that are big. Usually a small company would take order sizes up from 35 if it is just a variation of a single component. But still having a production run of 120 or above is more economical. About actual cost it depends on the number of components and such.
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Martin Durik Slovak Republic
| | Posts 29 14 Dec 2010 21:03
| So I think Natami team should ask for "reservations" for mobo, then they will know how many ppl has still interest in buying Natami, and based on that info they will know how many boards should be produced in 1st stage.
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Gunnar von Boehn Germany
| | (Moderator) Posts 5775 15 Dec 2010 00:04
| Ingmar H wrote:
| How many are the minimum size? 1,000? 10,000? How much would the production cost then? Eur 100,000 or even more like Eur 500,000?
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10,000 will cost a couple millions to produce. :-D
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3976 15 Dec 2010 05:39
| Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
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Ingmar H wrote:
| How many are the minimum size? 1,000? 10,000? How much would the production cost then? Eur 100,000 or even more like Eur 500,000? |
10,000 will cost a couple millions to produce. :-D
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Gunnar but the price per board would go down. ;)
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Flash Lab Netherlands
| | Posts 166 15 Dec 2010 07:06
| Yeah, so we all need to buy 1000 pieces?
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3976 15 Dec 2010 09:46
| Flash Lab wrote:
| Yeah, so we all need to buy 1000 pieces? |
If you can afford it and are willing to but in that quantity i will stop no one from doing it.I have just one question what are you gonna use a 1000 Natami's for?
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Ralph Ewers Germany
| | Posts 42 15 Dec 2010 12:53
| Martin Durik wrote:
| So I think Natami team should ask for "reservations" for mobo, then they will know how many ppl has still interest in buying Natami, and based on that info they will know how many boards should be produced in 1st stage. |
I think in the Amiga world this approach is burnt since phase5 did this and went belly-up, with many people losing their (considerable!) reservation fee in the process! This is the big problem - you'll need a sponsor for pre-financing material and production runs, so sooner or later Natami either has to go commercial (then you'll need a business plan for getting venture capital and do all the legal stuff) or go open source and coordinate individual orders to collect enough orders to make a production run viable. The latter may work with small batch sizes (say 100-200 - remember the Phoenix re-production on a1k.org some years ago) and/or low-complex boards, but with the Natami being quite complex (was it 6-layer?) and talking of some hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of units the only way i could imagine would be to go commercial - with all the abovementioned implications PLUS the cost for warranty risk, support, logistics, marketing etc.! Quite a task - i doubt you could do a startup like this in your leisure time only. Will be interesting to see how the team will tackle this (@Natami: if you need counseling i'd happily contribute on commercial or legal questions, as i'm a commercial & process guy working for the company which produced the raw PCB's for the old P5 PPC boards ;) Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:
| I have just one question what are you gonna use a 1000 Natami's for? |
Renderfarm... :)
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Gunnar von Boehn Germany
| | (Moderator) Posts 5775 15 Dec 2010 14:07
| Ralph Ewers wrote:
| The latter may work with small batch sizes (say 100-200 - remember the Phoenix re-production on a1k.org some years ago)
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The problem is, as smaller the batch, as more expensive it will become. Producing 5 x 100 units will make the system noticeable more expensive than producing 500 in one go. This means if we produce the system in 100 batches than the people will have to pay more for the baords. The problem is to know if 500 can be sold at all. Producing 500 units and only able to sell 300 would ruin us. Therefore a reservation system where people have deposit a small amount to reserve a board makes sense as it helps to find the ideal production run size. Which is in the interest of the users as this means lower price for them too.
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I Immortal Netherlands
| | Posts 67 15 Dec 2010 14:37
| oke! where can i sign up? Gunnar if you go for the reservation system it maybe would be a good idea to include rough price estimates on batch sizes and include how many reservations there are. this could encourage sales because people would say "wow only 20 more boards until we hit another limit and the boards will be $50 cheaper" like: 100 units = $1200; 250 units $1100; 500 units $1000 curent numer of reservations: 481
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Team Chaos Leader USA
| | (Moderator) Posts 2094 15 Dec 2010 14:44
| If there is going to be a reservation system then I like Immortal's idea.
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Martin Durik Slovak Republic
| | Posts 29 15 Dec 2010 15:48
| Team Chaos Leader wrote:
| If there is going to be a reservation system then I like Immortal's idea.
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Me 2. Anyway, you should check the market first, for example with little questionaire: 1) Are you interest in buying Natami real ? 2) Do you just think about buying Natami ? 3) What is the maximum price you can afford for natami (200USD / 300USD /500USD or price is not important) etc, so you will get basic information about Natami and interest of people in buying it. It will be helpfull for you to decide how to go to next stage. (for example, if 80% ppl wants cheap Natami, you will have to use lower quality component, or cheaper parts)
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Guillaume Michalakakos France
| | (MX-Board Owner) Posts 454 15 Dec 2010 16:16
| Team Chaos Leader wrote:
| If there is going to be a reservation system then I like Immortal's idea.
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+1
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David Ferguson USA
| | Posts 34 15 Dec 2010 16:40
| Guillaume Michalakakos wrote:
| Team Chaos Leader wrote:
| If there is going to be a reservation system then I like Immortal's idea. |
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Me too.
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3976 15 Dec 2010 16:46
| Martin Durik wrote:
| etc, so you will get basic information about Natami and interest of people in buying it. It will be helpfull for you to decide how to go to next stage. (for example, if 80% ppl wants cheap Natami, you will have to use lower quality component, or cheaper parts)
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Martin that would be a deal breaker for me, it is already a quality over quantity matter. If the team goes that way the math changes of the design. Some critical parts in the circuit cannot be of low grade quality since that would make the system as a whole buggy.(Resistor there is a 10% range to EITHER side 10K can be 9K or 11K, 5% range exist too) For one component it doesn't matter but for the whole circuit it does. This means in most if not all cases, for a complex board a redesign. This is not acceptable since the Design is done.(it has been said before by team members)
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Martin Durik Slovak Republic
| | Posts 29 15 Dec 2010 17:35
| Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:
|
Martin Durik wrote:
| etc, so you will get basic information about Natami and interest of people in buying it. It will be helpfull for you to decide how to go to next stage. (for example, if 80% ppl wants cheap Natami, you will have to use lower quality component, or cheaper parts) |
Martin that would be a deal breaker for me, it is already a quality over quantity matter. If the team goes that way the math changes of the design. Some critical parts in the circuit cannot be of low grade quality since that would make the system as a whole buggy.(Resistor there is a 10% range to EITHER side 10K can be 9K or 11K, 5% range exist too) For one component it doesn't matter but for the whole circuit it does. This means in most if not all cases, for a complex board a redesign. This is not acceptable since the Design is done.(it has been said before by team members)
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if the 20 % wants buy expensive natami, and 80% wants buy cheap. The producing of expensive natami version (with japanese capacitors, very fast fpga, precise resistors etc etc) will sale in ten of pieces. I am not saying that I want cheapest price. Its about demand.
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Samuel D Crow USA
| | (Natami Team) Posts 1295 15 Dec 2010 18:19
| Martin Durik wrote:
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Marcel Verdaasdonk wrote:
| For one component it doesn't matter but for the whole circuit it does. This means in most if not all cases, for a complex board a redesign. This is not acceptable since the Design is done.(it has been said before by team members) |
if the 20 % wants buy expensive natami, and 80% wants buy cheap. The producing of expensive natami version (with japanese capacitors, very fast fpga, precise resistors etc etc) will sale in ten of pieces. I am not saying that I want cheapest price. Its about demand.
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For most components it won't matter much which ones get used. As for the FPGA, some cheaper ones are slower but have the same pinout and could potentially be used for a lower-cost slower NatAmi model. It all depends on how the bulk-pricing pans out later on. Sure the board design is done but the boards will not be populated until later on.
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Marcel Verdaasdonk Netherlands
| | Posts 3976 15 Dec 2010 19:29
| Samual i don't know how it works with you but AFAIK a PCB design is only finished when the BOM is too. What i am saying is that some components are critical in the circuit and affect the whole system. On them we should not cut back, since it could mean a redesign of the board as a whole to do so. Some other less system critical components can be cut on like headers, and connectors. But people who complain about both price and connectivity, are those who want to sit on the front line for a few pennies. I am not one of them.
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